What Car - $10k Hi-MPG DD Hatch

In reply to toconn:

Here's the reason I prioritized mileage; gas isn't getting cheaper. I know that a few clicks at the pump is maybe $10 a week right now. But what if gas is $5, or $6. I'd like to own the car for a good five to ten years. What's gasoline going to cost in 2023? That's where I'm coming from.

If I wanted something that took work, for a daily, I'd put an F2T in a 90's 323 and call it good. Maybe if I get some cash together and pay SwankForce Celica whatever he goes by...

I talked to a friend tonight that works sales at a large Ford dealer, told him what I was looking for, said he'd keep an eye out. Maybe a new Fiesta isn't too far beyond my budget after all rebates and such are considered? I do kind of like the idea of a good ZX3 with a seat swap. Maybe this weekend I can find an RSX on a lot and give a test drive and play with the hatch area, bring a tape measure, see what's what.

Thanks for all of the suggestions.

poopshovel wrote:

I'm looking for serious improvements over my Intrigue

I think anything would be an improvement there. I've not owned an RSX, but I will say my 2G integra is deceivingly small on the outside. I've fit 10' sticks of moulding in it with the hatch closed. My big beefy 4 X 12 guitar cab fits in the hatch with the seats up & cargo cover on. It BARELY fit in my buddy's P71. $5k buys a nice 3G gsr. Also, quick math: Assuming $3.50/gallon, a FE increase from 20 combined to 30 combined = ~$500 in savings/year. Cheapest car to own is the one you already have!

32 mpg with cruise set @ 75 in my 2G. 35 hypermiling (not worth it - even at 24,000 miles/yr for me.)

Racer1ab wrote: In reply to poopshovel: Where are these mythical nice GSR's for 5 grand? All the ones in the greater DC Metro area have been festooned with Pepzone parts. Thinking I better hold on to the Vic until I finish school and get a new job. I'm surprised at how attainable CR-Zs are...even more so by ITRs.

Umm. Not DC? Two on CL from $3500-$5500(?) Stock. One boosted (and nice) on Import ATL for $8k (Dreaming.) I drove a berkeleying cherry blurple '99(?) at a Honda stealership 6 mos ago for $5400 asking. CHERRY! Looked brand new, but had been resprayed.

Dude, you hardly drive at all! Drop the mpg stuff and open up your options!

In reply to icaneat50eggs:

The MPG numbers weren't hard requirements, I figured they would illustrate what I was hoping for if possible without it being a big problem. If the numbers were more like 25/35 city/highway, what would you suggest? Right now an RSX (I'd really like to find a non-S with a manual which seems kind of rare) or a ZX3 seem like the cars I should check out first.

Why go with a non-S RSX? Asking prices are the same and I can't imagine the minor difference in mileage would be worth doing without 40hp and a slightly better suspension.

Just ask Friedgreencorrado - we went through this very same conversation. He bought an S.

pres589 wrote: In reply to toconn: Here's the reason I prioritized mileage; gas isn't getting cheaper. I know that a few clicks at the pump is maybe $10 a week right now. But what if gas is $5, or $6. I'd like to own the car for a good five to ten years. What's gasoline going to cost in 2023? That's where I'm coming from. If I wanted something that took work, for a daily, I'd put an F2T in a 90's 323 and call it good. Maybe if I get some cash together and pay SwankForce Celica whatever he goes by... I talked to a friend tonight that works sales at a large Ford dealer, told him what I was looking for, said he'd keep an eye out. Maybe a new Fiesta isn't too far beyond my budget after all rebates and such are considered? I do kind of like the idea of a good ZX3 with a seat swap. Maybe this weekend I can find an RSX on a lot and give a test drive and play with the hatch area, bring a tape measure, see what's what. Thanks for all of the suggestions.

I'm not sure i want to do that swap for you.... I could do it, but it'd have to keep a G-type trans, which MIGHT be ok considering the lower weight of the 323, but i don't have the fab skills necessary to get the H-type in there.

Anyways... with your budget, i think you were on the right track when you emailed me a month or two ago. For $10k, you could get the world's NICEST late 90s Corolla wagon, or Protege5.

I bet with some standard mild hypermiling mods, either could hit 40mpg. Both are reliable, can be made to be pretty fun, and parts are cheap. I'd personally lean more towards the 'Rolla, mostly because of my borderline irrational HATE of the FS-DE motor in the P5. (Though it seems to be pretty fine in stock form.)

In reply to Swank Force One:

I can buy a big hammer. I've already got a grinder. What else could be needed?

I can't seem to find a Corolla wagon that doesn't have 200k+ miles on the clock. I realize that $2k for one in that state leaves me a bunch of money to make it something outstanding... but I'm not looking for a project. If I was I'd be restoring my Oldsmobile. Actually I wouldn't but you get where I'm coming from I bet.

In reply to MattB:

I figured there was a real difference. Looking at fueleconomy.gov, I see it's a single MPG difference both on the highway and via user's experience. -S's are back on the table, thanks.

pres589 wrote: In reply to Swank Force One: I can buy a big hammer. I've already got a grinder. What else could be needed? I can't seem to find a Corolla wagon that doesn't have 200k+ miles on the clock. I realize that $2k for one in that state leaves me a bunch of money to make it something outstanding... but I'm not looking for a project. If I was I'd be restoring my Oldsmobile. Actually I wouldn't but you get where I'm coming from I bet. In reply to MattB: I figured there was a real difference. Looking at fueleconomy.gov, I see it's a single MPG difference both on the highway and via user's experience. -S's are back on the table, thanks.

I'm saying for $10k, you can afford to travel and find that 50k mile creampuff. And for your uses, that may very well be worth it. Have to weigh how important newer/sportier is to you vs obviously proven to run to well over 200k miles without major issues.

If the RSX Type S is on the table, then the Celica GTS needs to be as well. They're typically cheaper as well.

As for the F2T into a 323 swap.... we'd need to get our hands on Dansxr2's F2T MX3 for the answers.

E36 M3, if 35hwy is good, Forte5.

Unlike the RSX, you have torque and reasonable cruising rpm's. If you step down to the EX, you give up 25hp but can see 38 on the highway.

I had an RSX-S from 04-05. Early '02 build, Dad bought it new. You can fit a TON in them, they're pretty comfy, too. If I had to buy another one... honestly, it'd be a base. 05-06. Better seats/interior/looks. Brake rotor upgrade to Type-S size and better pads. Rear sway bar, no other suspension mods. Nice 17" wheels/tires. Then I'd swap in a K24A2, they make some pretty ridiculous N/A numbers from all OEM components, like 230whp/200whtq. I really hated how torqueless my '02 felt. I never had it reflashed/tuned(I've heard they make WAY more midrange when tuned), but it did have H&R springs, a race header, mount inserts, and short ram intake. Stupid top-end out of that thing, after the VTEC crossover it absolutely raped. Went 14.4@99mph with a 2.3 60'. I'm sure with better tires, a tune, and an exhaust it would've easily been in the 13's. I'd get 35mpg on the highway, close to 30 in town, and I didn't treat it great. I've read the 05-06 Type-S's make pretty huge mid-range torque numbers with the basic bolt ons and a race header, so that's another option if you're not willing to swap. Personally, I'd rather have the fabric seats from 05-06 Base. The 6-speed was great in my Type-S, only time I ever wished it had an LSD was when I autocrossed it. I think the Base's get better MPG's by 1-2 on the highway, but it's kind of a wash with driving style between a base and a Type-S. I'd love to have another one, it was a great car. I sold mine to my brother(back to stock), and he promptly let a ditch teach him his talent level.

That being said, one of my best friends has an 05-06 Type-S swapped, cammed, high compression, '96 Civic coupe. I'm not sure of the dyno numbers, but it absolutely rapes and has torque everywhere. I hate Civics, every single one of them, mainly because of the interior. It's by no means a DD friendly car, but holy crap does that thing pull. Has a 125 shot of nitrous on it, too. Pretty built car.

In reply to Bobzilla:

If those are available in my price range, heck yes. Unfortunately, cars.com doesn't even list the model, let alone show any. Autotrader.com shows the closest Forte hatch at some dealership 429 miles from Wichita. That's a long way to go for a test drive. 1100 miles away is one that looks like a great deal. But I'm not too interested in traveling these sorts of distances.

EDIT: http://www.kia.com/us/#/forte-5-door/?cid=sem&ppc=y Says the car doesn't show up until this year as a 2014 model? Not sure what's going on but this doesn't seem like a viable option.

A good friend of mine has an 06 RSX-S. It's alright.

It can hold a lot of stuff
It has a good ride
Its kinda quick

Its kinda heavy
The mileage is not great... ~29mpg, premium fuel
Rear wheel wells are already rusting car is from VA, spent life in VA/NC
Clutch springs failed at 70k miles (clutch wouldn't disengage)
Highway gearing sucks

He's not too much into handling or driving quickly, but I hear not-too-great things about the handling of these cars and lack of LSD, and I kinda see why. It wouldn't surprise me to see the base model quicker in an autocross environment (less weight, better gearing, power disadvantage is only up top)

He's trying to sell it to get something more economical.

pres589 wrote: In reply to Bobzilla: If those are available in my price range, heck yes. Unfortunately, cars.com doesn't even list the model, let alone show any. Autotrader.com shows the closest Forte hatch at some dealership 429 miles from Wichita. That's a long way to go for a test drive. 1100 miles away is one that looks like a great deal. But I'm not too interested in traveling these sorts of distances. EDIT: http://www.kia.com/us/#/forte-5-door/?cid=sem&ppc=y Says the car doesn't show up until this year as a 2014 model? Not sure what's going on but this doesn't seem like a viable option.

Came out in '11 as a '12MY. The '14's are a new body style.

RSX Type-S $4900:

http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/honda-acura-car-classifieds/339222-2002-acura-rsx-type-s-%244900-firm.html

If you want to go newer, I would recommend a Fit. Not the most powerful compared to others named in this thread but handles decent, cargo room out the wazoo and comfortable ride overall. Only suspension mod i've done is a rear sway bar and it handles like a go-kart. I usually knock down 32-33 mpg around town and have gotten mid to upper 30s before. If you want to go cheaper and pocket some money, I will throw out an oddball.. late 90s Ford Escort Wagon. They sell for very cheap, throw on a rear sway bar for better handling, decent cargo room, nobody will steal it and 30-40 mpg easy:

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=19446&endYear=2014&vehicleStyleCodes=WAGON&modelCode1=ESCO&showcaseOwnerId=71391&startYear=1997&makeCode1=FORD&transmissionCode=MAN&transmissionCodes=MAN&searchRadius=0&bodyStyleCodes=WAGON&mmt=[FORD[ESCO[]][]]&listingId=350344376&listingIndex=1&Log=0

funny how miliage around 30mpg is no longer considered "good"

funny how miliage around 30mpg is no longer considered "good"

The fact that it took this long for SOME people to stop thinking 30mpg is good is not funny to me. It's a side effect of some fairly stupid policy decisions that have cost us all a LOT of money over the years to benefit giant corporations. We did such a good job defraying the financial consequences of their poor business decisions that even when they went into bankruptcy, we pulled their asses out of the fire and threw more money at them! And then we punished them by raising CAFE by such an extremely high amount that it resembles what it SHOULD have looked like 15 years ago. How audacious! Murrica.

I have car that is a 15 y/o design that was rated ~60mpg highway. The fact that 15 years later, you STILL cant buy another 60mpg car in this country, is berkeleying stupid. Not really funny at all.

Vigo wrote:

funny how miliage around 30mpg is no longer considered "good"

The fact that it took this long for SOME people to stop thinking 30mpg is good is not funny to me.

This.

I like higher MPG because I like to lower my cost of ownership. To me, the actual rating of the car isn't important... the amount it costs me to drive is what matters. I don't understand how people don't say "HOLY berkeley-BALLS, I've spent $2000 this year on fuel alone. If I drove a 40mpg car, that number would be a lot less. 50mpg even less. 60mpg... why can't I buy a 60mpg car?!?!" Especially those that drive a reasonable amount and/or don't make a high salary. My fuel cost is around 1.5% of my gross salary. I make a respectable amount and I don't drive that much, in a moderately efficient car. There are many on this board where that number has to be more like 5-10%.... crazy!!

I drive a car that averages slightly higher than 30. The only reason I do is that the cost of ownership is less than newer cars that get better mileage (due to low buy-in and insurance/taxes) and its more practical (slightly) than older super-efficient cars like the Insight. For any given price range (like OP), for DD-ish purposes, you can be sure I'm looking for whatever gets the best mileage and retains the needed functionality.

I should really do a "cost per mile" analysis on the integra.

and its more practical (slightly) than older super-efficient cars like the Insight.

I wouldnt recommend an Insight to someone who didn't have some pre-existing auto or tech enthusiast background. As the earliest hybrid and highly specialized design, it's far from a perfect all arounder and the life expectancy of the battery pack, along with the overall 'integration' of the hybrid behaviors into the driving experience, mark it as the most 'primitive' hybrid in some respects. As enthusiasts we accept some amount of weirdness and might even be willing to pay extra to get something that is 'special' or 'different', but for a lot of 'normal' people it would not be the car i'd recommend for a high mpg commuter. It would be pretty far down the list behind things like a Corolla, Mazda3, Yaris, Fit, Echo, small Scion, and yeah, some Saturns in there somewhere.

In reply to Swank Force One:

So where are these things at? That's one issue I've got going, trying to locate said creme puffs. A 90's Corolla wagon with a manual trans with 50k miles sounds like a unicorn, not unlike the Forte5. I like the idea, maybe more than the Forte actually, but I never saw such a thing available.

WTF? How did we go from $10k not miserable hatch to "Corolla Wagon?" You guys are weird.

We ran the numbers 6 years ago and decided to buy the wife the Accent. She was driving my Elantra for 100 miles/day and Iwas driving the truck 50 miles/day. Truck @ 20mpg, Elantra @ 35mpg. Didn't take long to realize this was going to get expensive in fuel. So we bought the Accent that she averages 38-40mpg for the now 75 mile drive and I drove the Elantra @ 35mpg. Worked out to $1000/year in fuel savings JUST GOING TO WORK. PAid $2k for the car, it was paid off in 2 years, the last 4 have been money in the pocket.

If the increase in mpg is significant enough you can definitely save real money depending on how much you drive.

The thing people don't take into account is the diminishing returns on economy as the numbers climb. Each new increase has to be a bigger jump to make any significant difference in cost of ownership.

Take Bobzilla for example: Going from 20 mpg to 35 mpg he saves 2.2 gallons every 100 miles.

To get the same improvement next time he would need to go from 35 mpg to 166 mpg!