What happens when you pay someone to work on your car

WA state requires auto repairs and upgrades authorized for a specific dollar amount in writing before any repairs can be done. Verify your states legislation and then take 'em to court. Document further contacts with the shop and be certain to discuss the situation with them before going and getting a lawyer. You may get that money to buy a lift especially if you can get some damages. They may get a fine from the state too.

When I ran a shop, I probably wouldn't have promised that workload in three days. If I did, everything would be listed appropriately on the bill. It would have been fixed right when you came to get it or we would be paying overtime to make it right. A bolt on part incorrectly installed by a shop and needing to be removed and reinstalled should not count as billable labor more than once.

Montgomery County Maryland requires that an estimate be furnished before work starts and that the final bill cannot exceed it by more than 10% w/o approval.

Counter guy said "I'll have your estimate by noon" and never followed through. legally they're not supposed to start work before the customer has an estimate. BTW, it's a general BMW shop, not a dedicated race shop.

I'll verify the law and try to engage the owner before proceeding further, but considering how unconcerned he's been when I asked about the wiring and the PS pump, I suspect he simply doesn't actually give a sh1t.

On the upside, the car is just awesome now...

I just quoted you here in order to get a good look at the work done.

I think I am going to call BS on your first sentance that you do good work, especially if that work is good planning. Which systems on the car did you work on in the past 6 months?

motomoron wrote: I'm careful and methodical, and think I do pretty good work. Unfortunately, time and weather didn't cooperate and I turned to a well regarded local independant BMW mechanic The Tuesday before a 2 day NASA HPDE at VIR I dropped the car at the shop in the morning. What I wanted was: Remove exhaust system at headers. Trans Work clutch and diff: Remove driveshaft. Drop diff and subframe. Replace diff and Powerflex subframe bushings. Install AL flywheel-Clutchmasters clutch+p-plate. Install rear main seal while there. Install new center bearing and Guibo when reinstalling Change trans-diff-engine fluids Suspension Work: Replace upper and lower outer control arm balljoints. Replace upper inner control arm bushings. Install adjustable lower control arms (inner bushings already installed) Install front control arms w/ Powerflex bushings Mount 4 direzzas Align to specs and set cross weight. Brake Work: Swap race pads in, bleed brakes enough for fresh fluid in the calipers. Cooling System Work: Install Zionsville race cooling system (new radiator: http://www.zionsvilleautosport.com/store/shop.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=E36CCKI&Category_Code=AR1) Install Stewart water pump, leave mechanical fan off Install underdrive pulleys Electrical Work: Wire SPAL double relay 2-speed fan harness ...owner is wrapping his huge abomination of wiring up in 10 feet of harbor freight split-sheath, a roll of electrical tape and 50 zip ties. I'd expect 2 full days should get it done.

Now, did you get taken? Sure, maybe.
I also expect that you get hit with a "rush charge." That is, short timeframe planning on your part did not equal an emergency on their part.

I would like to know, what price do you think would have been right?

I ues I am lucky. While running a track day at Summit, the Shenandoah(sp) track, I developed a transmission leak, oil going on the exhaust. for which I am thankfull. It also was shiffting hard. so I loaded it on the trailer. Thankfull for that, 400 mils from home. Anyway, I do not have the facility to pull the transaxle so I took it to my locally owned transmission shop. He said he was pretty sure what happened. He was right. When he got it out and apart, he called me and asked if I wanted to see what happened. So I went down. The rollpin on the differential shaft had sheared. The pin had started to work out and rubbed a groove in the housing creating a small hole. He said he had patched a lot with JB Weld. The pin had hit the shift selector plate causing the hard shiffting. All said and done, he charged me $700. Which was less than I had anticipated. He also showed me any worn parts and inspected the clutch and gears. All good.

motormoron, speaking from the other side of this fence. if you are bringing your own parts to the equation (i am unsure if this actually happened) you already are stealing money out of the mechanics/business owners pocket after all you dont show up to a steak house with a steak you brought from your local grocery store and ask them to cook it do you?
If you showed up @ my shop even if i was sitting w my thumb up my proverbial backside you could not pay me enough to work on this car in that time constraint (example remove and install of factory M6 headers on a retail basis the charge is 9 hours!) that in laymens terms is 1.1 days so already w one job you have eaten up half of your projected total time. Second half of these parts are going on to a other than new car and if it a race/hpde car are you really naive enough to think that the car is in that perfect of a condition and all the nuts and bolts are so perfect they are just going to fall off of the car? Third a lot of these parts are not BMW parts so they dont just POP on the car with little or no effort so you need to factor that in and what happens if the fan clutch strips in the process to getting to the water pump and so on and so forth. I am not attempting to be condescending here but really TWO days you are out of your MIND if you gave me 10k cash I still would not do this job in those contraints for you .
HERE is a quote all car people should live by YOU CAN HAVE THE WORK ANY ONE OF THREE WAYS: FAST AND CHEAP, BUT IT WONT BE SAFE CHEAP AND SAFE, BUT IT WONT BE FAST FAST AND SAFE, BUT IT WONT BE CHEAP

I have this hanging in my shop and whenever anyone gets the OMG look I point to that sign then I point to the door. You choose.

I defy you and or any one else for that matter to do all that work in 16 hours on a car you have never worked on before or had time to prep all the hardware/fasteners w some kind of penetration oil. If you are honest about it you will NEVER accomplish it and if you do then you should go work for the McLaren F1 team they need your help to pull there head out of their asses.

Also dont forget the rule of 8's "anything you dont do for a living or everyday will take you at least 8 times longer and cost 8 times more than you expected it to once you tally it up @ the end"

PLEASE TAKE THIS TO HEART AND CUT THE GUY A BREAK YOU SET HIM UP FOR A FAILURE AND HE WAS TO DUMB TO SEE THE TRAIN COMING @ HIM BUT YOU MADE THE FIRST WRONG MOVE WITH OUT A DOUBT.

Colin Miller

My 2 cents.

Your mistakes:

1. You didn't get an estimate before leaving the keys with the shop.
2. You didn't plan ahead

Their mistakes: 1. They overpromised and under-delivered, I work in the opposite way. 2. How could they not have seen boxes full of parts and not given you an estimate...or how could they, maybe they thought you carried a blank check.

Having said that, I would talk to the owner nicely and give him the opportunity to make things right especially if he has any association with any racing/hpde clubs. His reputation is on the line. Don't expect him to drop the price much if at all but at least ask for a breakdown of the cost and an explanation of why the estimates weren't provided.

Aside from that, you just can't expect the same level of care and responsibility towards your car (or anything really) than you would take yourself. Personally, even the most highly recommended mechanics didn't wow me. I worked alongside them (I make friends and jump in to help) and they worked like robots, hanging calipers by hoses, using impact wrenches to tighten the bolts and one guys even the spark plugs!! After a couple of those episodes I do my best to do all of my own repairs now. Wife's Accord has been dealer serviced since new, being an Accord it really hasn't needed much other than oil changes etc. Well the other day I asked my wife when they last changed the transmission fluid since we were planning a long roadtrip. She said it's never been changed, my jaw dropped. She further explained that she'd asked then a few months ago when she was in for an oil change to see if any other fluids especially ATF and brake fluid needed changing. They said everything was fine. After hearing this I marched outside, pulled out the dipstick and as suspected the ATF was burnt. I went to a nearby dealer and got the Honda ATF and replaced it. What came out was so disappointing, even the wife was very upset when she saw the fluid. Now I'm on a 3000 mile ATF change cycle for the next 3 or 4 times...

it's easy to get a bill for 46 hours work in 36 hours. Mechanic A is doing your suspension and brakes while Mechanic B does your clutch job. Mechanic C stops by for part of the time to remove the exhaust header. Mechanic A or B installs the header, depending on who's finished first.

That assumes the shop had all those mechanics free.

Also, someone said to show up at Small Claims Court with your lawyer. The only way a lawyer makes it into a Small Claims proceeding is if he/she is either the plaintiff or the defendant him/herself. You will lose this one anyway because nothing was written down. As far as I can tell, there wasn't even a verbal agreement. Take it from a guy who's 7-0 in Small Claims Court, usually as the contractor or sub-contractor.

Unfortunately, I think you share some of the blame here. It would take a good mechanic at least 20 minutes to a half hour to give you a detailed estimate on a job that size. That would be time well spent in your case. For the mechanic, he could determine whether he had the time or resources to get the job done in the allotted time.

Also, you stated the car is now "awesome," other than the new clutch. If the work was not performed correctly or the messy wiring harness did not function resulting in a problem, you might have a case.

New diaphragm-type pressure plates and discs also feel very easy to compress at first. The clutch release mechanism has more mechanical advantage because the spring(s) are compressed further by the thickness of the new disc. As the disc wears, the spring changes angle relative to the disc and the mechanical advantage lessens.

Sorry, but Judge Jerry finds for the defendant (gavel slam).

Most shops charge flat rate, so it's fairly easy to accumulate more billed time than time in the day if the shop/mechanic is good at what they do. It's how they survive.

I have to say, this sounds like the type of customer that puts good businesses out of business because of unrealistic demands, unrealistic timeframes and personal screwups. I have to say, I feel for this shop.

Add into the fact that most OE shops will donk you for bringing in a prepared vehicle.

We have a customer who brings his very well prepared GTi in for services. We treat it like a normal car. He decided last friday to have new coil overs installed here and supply his own parts. We charged him correctly and accordingly.

IF you are a regular customer the shop will treat you like one, if Ralph dropped off his GTi for the first time friday never having been here before we wouldn't have even done the work.

I call MoMos nightmare a push: The customer is expecting too much and the shop should not have taken the job.

Two days? Bro, I couldn't do that in 2 weeks. With a lift. I think the shop sounds like a herd of morons (b/c of the clutch fiasco), but you shouldn't have expected that much work. You NEVER do major work (and that's major) the week before an event. it just doesn't work that way.

I sure wouldn't use them any more, but I think you'll end up short in court.

Thats a E36 M3ty situation.

I'm surprised you planned on going to a track event with a brand new clutch though... I thought they had break-in periods.

I'd still try to get some money back and have everything repaired correctly though.

aussiesmg wrote: I would be challenging them in small claims court, there is no way they can charge you for hours they weren't open. Fight them they are already discredited by this fraudulent charge.

Good luck with small claims. I've won the last two suits I filed for my company and gotten nothing. The state of Connecticut will charge you $35 for court, but does nothing to help you collect. In fact, between loosing paperwork and sloooooooow processing, one claim took over a year just to file.

Bobzilla wrote: I have to say, this sounds like the type of customer that puts good businesses out of business because of unrealistic demands, unrealistic timeframes and personal screwups. I have to say, I feel for this shop.

to be fair the shop should have refused this job

John Brown wrote: IF you are a regular customer the shop will treat you like one, if Ralph dropped off his GTi for the first time friday never having been here before we wouldn't have even done the work.

OK that's going too far...and I don't mean to pick on your John but this is the 2nd or 3rd such argument in this thread. What difference does it really make if someone brought their own parts other than you didn't make your commission/cut on selling the parts. If you're in the parts business then you should state so and customers will understand but if you're a service shop then this makes no sense. I do realize there's the "can't guarantee the part" mantra and that's fine and understood well but as long as you say that in writing and the customer agrees then it's a moot point.

Especially for you guys to say something like this on the GRM board where majority of us not only do most of our own repairs but also source parts from all different venues that's like saying "take your business elsewhere because we don't like you grassroots type guys, we only like the minivan moms who we sell electrosonic-engine cleaners all day long and the business is good" as opposed to saying "hey man that's pretty cool that you bought the external-reservoir-ohlins for your 1982 Volvo 240"

RussellH wrote:

John Brown wrote: IF you are a regular customer the shop will treat you like one, if Ralph dropped off his GTi for the first time friday never having been here before we wouldn't have even done the work.

OK that's going too far...and I don't mean to pick on your John but this is the 2nd or 3rd such argument in this thread. What difference does it really make if someone brought their own parts other than you didn't make your commission/cut on selling the parts. If you're in the parts business then you should state so and customers will understand but if you're a service shop then this makes no sense. I do realize there's the "can't guarantee the part" mantra and that's fine and understood well but as long as you say that in writing and the customer agrees then it's a moot point.

In his case he's a dealership, I would expect a dealer to not want to install non factory parts, especially on a car that was not a regular customer because you don't know the person you are dealing with. When his $50 ebay coil overs stop working he starts badmouthing VW and the dealer because they were dealer installed, so they should last like OE parts.

Every shop i have ever dealt with as an employee and a customer has made money off of parts, just like every other business makes money off of the items it provides in addition to it's services. I have a shop that does anything I'm not comfortable, don't have the time, or too lazy to do myself. He is a friend, but if he's working on my car during business hours I would expect him to make a fair amount of money off my job. He has bills to pay, and a family to feed, why shouldn't he be compensated fairly for his time? I get paid for my time when I'm at work, why wouldn't I pay others for they're work.

whoa, hold up... begin rant...

If a shop accepts a job, they have an obligation to complete the work as promised, period.. "good customer" , new customer, it doesnt matter, nor does the source of the parts, the shop decided they were capable and willing to do the requested work, they need to be accountable if they screw it up. I am so sick and tired of the "good customer" argument..its like saying its okay to screw someone because they arent a regular customer. If theyre getting paid for their work, then everyone who brings them work is a "good customer." If they dont want to use the customers parts, they need to turn that job down. there is no excuse in my book for shoddy work. if i bring my car to you and ask for x to be done, i expect it done, on time, on estimate, if there is an issue, i expect a call, a recommendation and options or a question if something is unclear, if my mechanic cant grasp that, then they wont be my mechanic anymore.. and dont charge me for your learning curve, if you took the job and had to figure out how to do it, , making it take longer, then that part is on you, i paid for a knowledgeable professional, if id wanted to pay for education id send the neighbor kid to night school to learn how to fix my car..

A friend, who was like a father to me *(RIP Mr. Bill..), and also had several shops once told me "the only bad customers are the one who don't pay their bills!" sure his regular customers got some special attention on occasion, like not being charged for scanner pulls or other simple diagnostics, but he felt stongly that if someone was taking the time to come to his shop, whether he knew them or not, he was going to do everything he could to fix their problem and make sure they left feeling they had the best service and a fair deal. he also thought the book labor rates in many cases were ridiculous, and refused to charge an hours labor for a true 15 minute job, he did always round up to the nearest half hour, but always tried to be as fair as possible.. he had five different shops going at one point, and they were always busy. several times i saw him fire his shop managers for overcharging customers, or inflating bills...

I helped him get his last shop going , after he sold off the rest, and learned a hell of allot from him. to this day i still kick myself for not buying in as a partner when he asked me... oh, and he also was extremely detailed in his estimates, as a result, he always came in under the estimate, if the car didn't need a part on the estimate, it didn't go in and he'd deduct the item from the bill.. if only one in ten shops worked this way, people wouldnt be so scared to take their cars to them..unfortunately,id be surprised if there's one of 100 that work that way.

im sorry (actually im not, its just an expression) but the reason most dont trust the repair shops is because across the board, they screw people, it is the standard, not the exception. on the rare occasion i do need to use a shop, i always test them first, the last time i did this a shop created about 2k worth work that i needed "urgently", unfortunately it was all items that were recently replaced, fixed or updated. they slated every clean part under the car as needing to be replaced, told me i had broken parts that werent, needed hoses that were brand new , ect. and this was a "well regarded" performance shop. i pulled my car out of there so fast it probably created dust devils..

there is one shop on the entire east coast i trust, ONE! I think thats pretty sad...and i cant even give them my business as there 1200 miles away...they arent cut rate, and they arent kiss arse, but are straight up, do great work, and back up what they promise.. thats all it takes, but so many dont get it.... rant over...

Midas won't install "other peoples parts".

924guy wrote: whoa, hold up... begin rant... If a shop accepts a job, they have an obligation to complete the work as promised, period..

I wasn't impling that the OP was wrong, for some reason the shop he went to aggreed to do alot of work in a little time, and shouldn't have done so if they didn't think they could, but I could see why a shop wouldn't install parts someone brought in off the street because I have been bit by putting on someones crap body kit and then getting sued and losing when the pos front bumper started to deform.

And how much time off from work will you take to go to court? Come one Please court???? Stop the chest pounding. You don't have a leg to stand on. All he has to do is look up the book time for everything he did and he wins. He then counter sues you and win's WTF I see this all the time in my real job and and part of my job it is to tell really PO'ed owners to walk. Blaming others for your mistakes (and this is what this is) is a bad habit to get in to. Learn from it and walk away.

If you were dumb enough to hand over your car with those unreasonable expectations and hand them what amounted to a signed blank check what do you expect. Further more after reading the list of stuff that you had done I think the bill is rather fair.

I have worked in a shop for a while and I use to do race work on the side on my own "shop" (basement really) That list is a good 60 hours of work when you add it up. Do the math you were not over charged. If some of the work was sub standard you should bring it to the owners attention and he should thank you for this but don't expect a pile of cash to be handed to you. An offer to repair re wire or what ever at no cost is about all I would expect.

I agree with what others have said and that is you had unreasonable expectations as to the value of the service you were asking for AND if you went into the shop acting like you know it all and are an excellent mechanic they probably just assumed that you knew what it would take to do the work and what it will cost. I mean after all you are an expert and you have a race car you know what it takes to do all this right? What is the problem?

Get over it, learn from it, enjoy a great running car and move on. Bad mouth your self but not the shop that tried there best for you. I would be interested to know who this shop was as in my book it looks like he actually charged you a fair price for the work done and was able to get it done in time (barley). No one is perfect but dam dude look in the mirror before tossing the proverbial hand grenade.

RussellH wrote:

John Brown wrote: IF you are a regular customer the shop will treat you like one, if Ralph dropped off his GTi for the first time friday never having been here before we wouldn't have even done the work.

OK that's going too far...and I don't mean to pick on your John but this is the 2nd or 3rd such argument in this thread. What difference does it really make if someone brought their own parts other than you didn't make your commission/cut on selling the parts. If you're in the parts business then you should state so and customers will understand but if you're a service shop then this makes no sense. I do realize there's the "can't guarantee the part" mantra and that's fine and understood well but as long as you say that in writing and the customer agrees then it's a moot point. Especially for you guys to say something like this on the GRM board where majority of us not only do most of our own repairs but also source parts from all different venues that's like saying "take your business elsewhere because we don't like you grassroots type guys, we only like the minivan moms who we sell electrosonic-engine cleaners all day long and the business is good" as opposed to saying "hey man that's pretty cool that you bought the external-reservoir-ohlins for your 1982 Volvo 240"

RusselH what it comes down to is that most shops cannot survive on the profit that they make on there labor alone. they need the combined profit level of the parts and the labor to survive and even @ that they are not turning themselves into millionaires believe me. If you think I am off base here lets look @ the numbers lets just look @ two different blue collar jobs Plumber and Automobile technician

Plumber can potentially carry almost every tool he needs in one hand held tool box. Living in the northeast earned (prior to the realestate bubble burst was upwards of 100k per year (I have verified this with a family member that is an independent plumber (granted he hustles alot but no more or less than i do.)
Auto tech has a 3000-7000$ dollar tool box that carries potentially 50-100K worth of tools ( I am not talking about your basic set of tools, but speialized tools that are required for specific vehicles if you specialize in one or a few product lines) Dealership tech can get a away w less outlay because the manufacturer requires the dealer to buy the special tools so the tech dont' have to. salary 80k if you work you A$$ off and run your self ragged.

As an independent technician (I am overstepping the bounds here but oh well). If I dont make a combined gross profit on my jobs of 60% then I am down for the count in a few months. If any one shows up with there own parts then my labor charges react accordingly because I HAVE to make that 60% level to provide a income for my self and pay my suppliers and have a respectable income to supply my family.

In short this is WHY some one coming in with there own parts is shunned and potentially turned away. I hope this clarifies the scenario for you. We are just trying to stay in business. And as has the internet turned everything in the retail/wholesale world upside down. It has also made life for the little guy (like the shops we all like to use/patronize) to stay in business . So have a heart and understanding of the plight of the small business/ car repair business owner.

Keep in mind tat once you get to us after you have tried to fix/modify/ or repair your car, you are coming to us for our knowledge of how to do it the correct way and all of a sudden the grease monkey wrench turning aspect goes away because any one can do that or be taught to. @ that juncture you (the customer) are walking thru my door because I KNOW how to fix/repair or modify the car properly and in a time effective manner. That takes the blue collar job and turns it into a white collar job because its not how fast my wrist can spin the ratchet that you are coming to me for but how well my brain can solve the problem you created and or the problem the car has on its own. And as a result of that I am gonna get my 60 % gross profit from you the customer.

Above and beyond that you really aren't paying me for my knowledge @ this point (@ least in my eyes) But you are paying me to spend time away from my wife and my daughter {and believe me even if I made 1000$ per hour NET it still would not be enough)

I mean really can you put a price on feeling you get when your little child smiles @ you and thinks that seeing you is the absolute best thing that they have done all day!!! I cant............

I have many cool customer like the proverbial 240 guy w the ohlins remote resevoir, but there has to be an understanding that takes place between the shop and the owner and if there is no agreement then there is no work done.
like I said in a previous post there have been many mistakes in this scenario by both parties

So lemme get this straight... at $90/h for labour in a shop (labour that is calculated by a book, NOT by how many hours were actually worked), money can't be earned without selling parts to go with the repairs? BullE36 M3 I say. I've been around plenty of shops (viable ones), that specialize in doing performance work and see customers bring in their own parts all of the time, and the shops do perfectly fine. The biggest thing I've noticed is that the owner of the shop keeps his customers happy... hmmm.

Having said that, that sounds like a freakin' TON of work you asked to be done, and in a short time frame. $5K sounds like you were overcharged, but what did you expect to get charged? Everyone is right though that if you paid the price they asked, everything should be fixed to your standards if its still borked.

HiTempguy wrote: So lemme get this straight... at $90/h for labour in a shop (labour that is calculated by a book, NOT by how many hours were actually worked), money can't be earned without selling parts to go with the repairs? BullE36 M3 I say. I've been around plenty of shops (viable ones), that specialize in doing performance work and see customers bring in their own parts all of the time, and the shops do perfectly fine. The biggest thing I've noticed is that the owner of the shop keeps his customers happy... hmmm. Having said that, that sounds like a freakin' TON of work you asked to be done, and in a short time frame. $5K sounds like you were overcharged, but what did you expect to get charged? Everyone is right though that if you paid the price they asked, everything should be fixed to your standards if its still borked.

Oh no You can stay Alive if you let your customers bring in parts but not for long.
absolutely money can be earned @ 90$ per hour but that alone is not enough to sustain a valid company for any extended period of time.out of that 90 the comapny has to pay taxes on its employee's, pay the rent/mortgage, pay the insurance, pay the light/heat bills, pay the tech, pay for those little consumables that people flip out over if you charge them for like the gallon of windshield washer or the extra can of brake clean you used to clean up after the oil change so the car did not leave any spots on your nice paver driveway or the turn signal bulb they just thru in for you cause it was the right thing to do. Look @ your books for your business and or company you work for and see what they dump out @ for GP%?

I just added up all the labor hours by book time for the work listed @ minimum the charge should be for @ least 35 hours worth of work. (my exact total came to 31.6 hours but there is too little info to be able get exact numbers)

Until about 20 minutes ago I have never told any customer type of people what is takes for a car shop to be profitable (the 60% number) and I bet you if you could convince the shop you speak of (which you are calling BS on me about) to let you look @ their books, (provided they are succesfull and expanding shops, from a client stand point not a physical standpoint) you might be suprised about how it shakes down. and how much the profit level gets whacked when you let customers show up with there own parts

I mean really do you go to the restaurant w your own food and ask them to cook it for you?

Also Viable and Profitable are 2 very different things. Viable means it exists, profitable means well profitable.

Viable means that it can be made profitable.

Many of the shops local to me post a "bring your own parts" labor rate that is about 50% higher than their normal rate.

It makes sense to me, as they don't know that the part they are installing is good or bad.

I think i'm pretty lucky that I have a good relationship with my mechanic. I'd say at this point we are friends. He's a circle track racer, so we get along pretty well. I know if I have an emergency he'll take a car in, and it will be first priority to be done. If it's one of the beaters in my fleet that I don't need back right off, it will take longer, as he will service "emergencies" for his other customers first. If he puts my car off, I know the repair bill drops substantially. That is the way he is with most customers. He doesn't think twice about giving me advice on how to fix something on my own if I have questions. I don't think he'll ever be rich, but I don't think he cares to be. He has 5 children that he supports along with his current wife and alimony to the ex. I can't imagine those bills. I think there is a lot of overhead in the auto repair business.

That said $5100 must have been a bit of surprise. Even though you didn't ask for an estimate, you should have asked for a ballpark figure. The shop also would have been wise to mention something along the lines....."you know this is going to be several grand, don't you?" So I think both sides are at fault to a certain extent. The $5100 make more sense in certain parts of the country compared to others. Labor rates certainly vary greatly across the country.