What happens when you pay someone to work on your car

2 things here and 2 things only are important:

A). The customer is always right...always

2). Always get it in writing...always

Two wrongs dont equal a right, but when each party owns one of the wrongs, then 2 wrongs just equal nothing...except learn from your experience and move on

we all have a I was burned by this E36 M3 -ty shop because blah blah story. The point is people dont plan to fail, people fail to plan. Prior planning prevents poor performance. etc etc I could go on all day, but the bottom line here is unreal customer expectations combined with a less than upstanding or high caliber shop = FTL

+1 on "fast, cheap, safe - pick 2"

nuff said

My trusted mechanic once screwed up and allowed one of his yahoos to work on my turbo diesel. Said yahoo apparently dropped trash into the engine during a top end rebuild.

When I got it back with no oil pressure, my mechanic did a lot of work to try to correct it (oil pump, sending unit, etc.). Didn't fix it.

I brought it back one more time with no oil pressure, and he fessed up. He got to work and pulled the motor, put it on a stand, turned it over, and rebuilt the bottom end. Put the truck back together with an essentially complete rebuild. I drove it one day- still no oil pressure.

It sat in his shop for a couple of days while he researched the problem. He came to the conclusion that he had built the motor backwards- he rebuilt the top end first, then turned it over on the stand to rebuild the bottom (which allowed the trash to fall to the top), turned it back and the trash settled back in the bottom.

He pulled the motor again, loaded it on a truck, and sent it 60 miles to the next biggest city with an engine shop he trusted. They did a COMPLETE rebuild.

He re-installed the motor. I got the truck back, and it ran fine.

I NEVER GOT A BILL. He knew he'd messed up, and did all the work (including paying another engine shop for the 2nd rebuild) at HIS cost.

I've been a loyal customer ever since. 15 years later, I now live 70 miles away, but I will trailer my car up there or pay for towing if I have to for him to work on it.

It goes both ways.

^^too bad more of that guy arent around every corner

Still, makes no sense to me. If the concern is "whether the parts are good or bad" you just need to put in writing that you can't guarantee the parts themselves but the service is guaranteed. Have the customer understand and sign and you're done.

I will never recommend a shop that wants to make the cut on selling the parts because they're just like the dealers then. No point in going to an independent shop, period.

Even if I did let you buy parts, how many shops carry or can source aftermarket parts that I want like the Ohlins or Carbotech or whatever it is that you want. By your account, hundereds of shops selling parts online should only sell through the independent repair shops? If so TireRack would be out of business among many others.

I'm not saying that you should install any used/torn/worn-out parts someone shows up but if it's brand new name brand parts then the only reason you wouldn't install them is greed because you didn't get to keep your 15-20% commission on it and that in my book of grassroots-motorsports is just not cool. But hey if that's how you want to run your shop then that's your choice, you won't see any business from most enthusiasts and racers like me.

I can see both sides here. But the part that stands out the most to me is that the quality of the work was lacking, and that's the most important part.

OP didn't get an estimate, he has nothing to stand up against the high charge.

But the work was shoddy. The shop should fix it.

car39 wrote:

aussiesmg wrote: I would be challenging them in small claims court, there is no way they can charge you for hours they weren't open. Fight them they are already discredited by this fraudulent charge.

Good luck with small claims. I've won the last two suits I filed for my company and gotten nothing. The state of Connecticut will charge you $35 for court, but does nothing to help you collect. In fact, between loosing paperwork and sloooooooow processing, one claim took over a year just to file.

I was able to collect by freezing their account once we won the judgement. If you paid by check you can look at the cancelled check to see where they bank and what account they used, then you take that info and file more paperwork. We had our money not too long after that. This happened in TN, so things may be different where you live.

RussellH wrote: By your account, hundereds of shops selling parts online should only sell through the independent repair shops? If so TireRack would be out of business among many others.

If I buy tires at Tire Rack and go to my local tire shop they charge me about $15 to mount and balance, If I buy the tires from them, it's $6 to mount and balance, how is that different from a repair shop charging more if you bring your own parts?

Yep good shops are hard to find...a few years back the place I usually took my car to got bogged down with a FedEx contract and things would take FOREVER...I started to take my car to the high-end "race shop." Unholy expensive but very fast and at first, about as good as my regular shop. But the quality of work and attention to detail went steadily downhill. When they refilled my brakes with low-quality fluid even though I asked for DOT4/5, lost all my tire valve caps and took the liberty of messing with my engine tune, that was the last straw...back to my previous shop, which was now free of the FedEx contract.

That race shop is the closest-to-decent shop in the island with an alignment machine so I still have to take my vehicles there sometimes for an alignment...last time, they lost all the tire valve caps off my Samurai. An offroad vehicle.

Wally wrote:

RussellH wrote: By your account, hundereds of shops selling parts online should only sell through the independent repair shops? If so TireRack would be out of business among many others.

If I buy tires at Tire Rack and go to my local tire shop they charge me about $15 to mount and balance, If I buy the tires from them, it's $6 to mount and balance, how is that different from a repair shop charging more if you bring your own parts?

All that means is that they are lying to you about the cost of M+B to make themselves look good when you compare costs to other dealers, because that cost is built into the prices of their tires. I don't ever appreciate being lied to when I acquire a service, so no, I don't think that's any better. I think businesses should be upfront and honest about what they are really charging for labor, and what they are really charging for materials instead of manipulating one to hide the other. If a shop thinks this is unreasonable, I think they're either endowed with a ridiculous sense of entitlement, or are actively trying to decieve me, and in either case I don't want to deal with that as a customer.

GameboyRMH wrote: last time, they lost all the tire valve caps off my Samurai.

and these things are really hard to find...man I feel for ya

Josh explained that better than I could. And that's exactly why the "buy 3 tires and get 1 free, plus free mount and balance" from Sears is still more expensive than buying the 4 tires online +local-mount+balance.

The other day I did get some tires and when I took them to my local JustTires they claimed that I should get an alignment for $90. I said "but it clearly shows on your price chart that alignment is $70" he said "yeah but the BMWs are always more expensive" - I told him to give me my keys back. Went to another Just Tires 6 miles away which quietly mounted my 4 tires without trying to sell an alignment "I'm sure most people fall for it thinking tire changes require realignment". I inquired how much for alignment just for giggles...$70 just like the price chart.

absolutely money can be earned @ 90$ per hour but that alone is not enough to sustain a valid company for any extended period of time.

Absolutley! I am sorry if I came off that way. The main shop I speak of makes sure that he can supply (most) of the parts he installs (for very decent prices), so it is VERY rare that this happens. However, when he has a first time customer/word of mouth/loyal customer he cuts them some slack. You've never seen a shop with repeat customers like this guy, its crazy. But he takes good care of his customers, and his customers take good care of him.

I'd rather pay the $90 for an alignment that's right then a $70 that's not. Knowing that 'BMW's cost more' is probably right as it takes them longer to do correctly.

Paul_VR6 wrote: I'd rather pay the $90 for an alignment that's right then a $70 that's not. Knowing that 'BMW's cost more' is probably right as it takes them longer to do correctly.

I'd rather go to the guy who knew I didn't need an alignment. The first guy "knew" Russell needed an alignment bedcause he was getting tires, and everynone who get tires needs one. He also "knew" that BMW's always take $20 longer because their drivers tend to spend more on their cars than most. Given that 4 wheel independant suspension isn't as rare as it was, I wouldn't expect a BMW to take much longer than any other car.

Exactly! Even if I did need an alignment my E36 is just like my old spec-miata. I've aligned it (E36 and Miata) myself several times using strings, toe plates and bubble-level camber gauge at the track lying on my back on hot tarmac.

All they have to do is drive the car up on the alignment lift hook the wheels up to a Hunter GPS9000, punch in the make/model/year then follow instructions to loosen 4 nuts/bolts and rotate the crash-bolts and tie rods a few turns until the machine says done. 30-40 mins max.

As for the whole repeat customer thing, I guess next time we take our clothes to a dry cleaner he should do a crappy job or better yet tell us to not bring our clothes there for cleaning since we didn't purchase the clothes from them...

My turn to jump in.

Damn straight we don't install other people's parts. All it takes is getting bit ONCE by that one. To start with, we truly don't make enough off of the labor alone to keep the place running and then when Mr/Mrs Customer discover the part is fo' E36 M3 it becomes 'then you must have installed it wrong and I want you to fix it for free'. Oh HELL no. BTW, that appears to be what happened with the clutch; you can't always expect people to understand that something weird (as in it's the first one they've ever seen) may not go in the way it looks like it should. I think we have all been there.

As for $5100.00 for the listed work, as noted earlier there are a lot of variables. I am not going to come down on either side of that one because I wasn't there. I will ask something: if it was a rush rush job then maybe someone agreed to stay late (maybe till midnight?) to get the thing done. Would any of you do that gratis? I think not. He expects to get paid for the time he took away from his family or maybe the titty bar.

I'm not in the auto industry but as a general rule I don't install customer supplied parts unless it is a good customer I have dealt with for a long time. Then usually only if it's a part I can't get. Jensenman stated the number one reason. The chance of having to buy a $1500.00 part I didn't supply to make $75.00 worth of labor isn't worth it. Third party parts can be of questionable quality. Just look at some of the stuff they sell on fleabay. Labor just barely covers overhead, and I'm not in the business of swapping nickles for nickles.

BTW one of the local tire shops charges $27.00 to mount and balance tires not bought from them. Tires bought from them are free.

sachilles wrote: Many of the shops local to me post a "bring your own parts" labor rate that is about 50% higher than their normal rate. It makes sense to me, as they don't know that the part they are installing is good or bad. That said $5100 must have been a bit of surprise. Even though you didn't ask for an estimate, you should have asked for a ballpark figure. The shop also would have been wise to mention something along the lines....."you know this is going to be several grand, don't you?" So I think both sides are at fault to a certain extent. The $5100 make more sense in certain parts of the country compared to others. Labor rates certainly vary greatly across the country.

Good points. I think it's poor form for both parties involved to not get the terms (price and aesthetics, in this case) straight before starting the job. Especially on a race car, where labor can add up fast and some racers would say a jumble of wires (or whatever may be the case) is fine if it's cheaper and works just the same. I'm surprised the shop didn't mention this was going to be a tough job (timeline and labor hours), but I'm also surprised the customer expected it cheap, fast, and easy. That's a huge list of work to be done days before an event.

To the ones saying shops/mechanics have to upcharge on parts to break even as part of the business model, I don't necessarily agree. Sure, they get volume discounts with open accounts and upcharge on parts sales to make a few bucks, but that's just a cherry on top and isn't requisite to keep the doors open at a decent shop IMO. Helps profits, but if your business model RELIES on parts profits from every single customer just to keep the doors open, time for a reevaluation.

Far more important than the profit on upcharging parts is sourcing from reputable suppliers/stores IMO. If the customer brings in Chinazone rotors and pads because they were $7 instead of $70, they did save money but they'll be griping about the squeaking, warping, etc. in no time...what then? If they bring in a water pump from craaaaazydeals.com and it leaks immediately, do you think they're going to pay the shop labor twice AND pay for another water pump from the shop? If the customer supplied cheaper part takes an extra hour to install ($$) compared to the shop supplied part that was $$ more, do you think the customer will understand if you have to upcharge them? Rarely! The people who think they should be able to bring in their own parts to save some dough are usually the exact same customers who don't think they should have to pay extra labor costs when said parts cause problems. That's fine and dandy with your cousin/uncle/brother trying to help you save a buck, but shops can't keep the doors open if they're always trying to help you save a buck at their expense.

I've had the "save money on parts, install parts three times" bite me in the ass before. On my budget projects like LeMons or $2009 I'll still take a chance, but I've learned my lesson when helping out friends. If I'm helping them out, they buy the parts I told them to buy or I'm not helping them...I don't mind helping out, but I do mind doing the job twice.

Bryce

I was a service manager for a few years. With a good shop that does good work, I don't think you could ask for a better, more forgiving customer than somebody in the business. When a shop does shoddy work and/or tries to take advantage of its customer (me or my family), hell hath no fury.

(I'm trained the food industry, and I'm the same in restaurants.)

Unfortunately, the more time my vehicles spend in the hands of others, the more I wonder why I'm paying somebody else to berkeley up the same stuff I could berkeley up for free.

In this case, yes, the OP was tempting fate not getting a written estimate, and putting an unknown shop on a tight schedule before a track event. But it is the ultimate and absolute responsibility of the shop to right the wrongs they created, even if they're in the customer's mind (not necessarily the case here, mind you). Period.

Jenseman, I expected a more legitimate reason from you since you are one of the sharper dudes on here. However, I keep hearing the same darned argument that we don't install customer bought parts because we can't guarantee it. I agree with part of it nd that's why I keep repeating put it down in writing and have the customer sign it. If the parts defective, obviously you can't be held responsible but if you installed the clutch plate backwards then it is your fault. But then maybe the real reason is what you pointed out early on i.e. "we truly don't make enough off of the labor alone to keep the place running" and if that's your view then I can't say anything to make you see it from the enthusiast's point of view. However, it's not like every customer you have brings their own parts, it's probably a small percentage of your customer base.

Then I hear the arguments about repeat customer, it goes both ways, to make a repeat customer you need to do something extra ordinary for me otherwise you're like any other 100s of shops. Really what does set you apart from the other shops? When you run a business you usually build it on customer service and value-add. So what is it for you? I realize everyone has to make a living but if you don't support the car enthusiasts then you must do it for pure money and not for the love of the automotive culture...

Am I still on the GRM board or is this an ASA shop forum?

RussellH wrote: I realize everyone has to make a living but if you don't support the car enthusiasts then you must do it for pure money and not for the love of the automotive culture...

Running a service shop ain't a charity. You establish a false dichotomy above that pits car enthusiasm against profitable business.

Is it unethical or unwelcoming to foodies when a restaurant upcharges for its parts, or won't allow a food-enthusiastic customer to bring in his own parts? It would be a lot cheaper that way, and I'm sure a real foodie would like to pick out his own parts and have them expertly assembled.

RussellH wrote: All they have to do is drive the car up on the alignment lift hook the wheels up to a Hunter GPS9000, punch in the make/model/year then follow instructions to loosen 4 nuts/bolts and rotate the crash-bolts and tie rods a few turns until the machine says done. 30-40 mins max.

I'm mildly confused here. What you seem to be describing are two different operations. A Hunter GSP9600 or 9700 (depending on the exact model) is a wheel balancer which uses a loaded roller to measure tire and wheel assembly runout. I would imagine that would be somewhat inconvenient with the car mounted on an alignment rack.

alex wrote:

RussellH wrote: I realize everyone has to make a living but if you don't support the car enthusiasts then you must do it for pure money and not for the love of the automotive culture...

Running a service shop ain't a charity. You establish a false dichotomy above that pits car enthusiasm against profitable business. Is it unethical or unwelcoming to foodies when a restaurant upcharges for its parts, or won't allow a food-enthusiastic customer to bring in his own parts? It would be a lot cheaper that way, and I'm sure a real foodie would like to pick out his own parts and have them expertly assembled.

You just reminded me of a steak house that used to be here in town. They would roll a cart out to your table full of beef. You could pick your cut and they would carve it right in front of you and cook it to order. This place didn't even have A1, and if you asked for it the chef would come out of the kitchen and ask you if there was a problem with your steak and offer to kook you another. Man I loved that place. MMMmmmm steak.......

Back to your regularly scheduled argument.......

I know that I've gone to shops driving my mercedes and could tell they wanted to rip my off, one guy said straight up 500$ before he'd even look at it. I'd always try to get a small job done first before asking for the whole tamale of work. If you look at how labor is charged with the book it doesn't matter if the 3h estimate only take 1.5h, they know the tricks to make the job happen quicker and are compensated accordingly.

Another issue is giving a shop the time they need to work, the last few times I brought my car to the shop it looked like it was abandoned there for a few weeks. If you give a mechanic time so they can do the small expensive new car jobs before they get around to the BMW or benz it will end up costing less and get better work. Part of the issue is if try to force tons of work into a short period the mechanic won't have enough time do both do the work and test it to make sure it works properly.

I've had to bring parts in when I gave up or didn't know what to do, so that shouldn't be a big deal. I think they charge you a little more on top of the labor for the lost money on the parts.

Finally if your mechanic does do a totally bitchin job and your car is driving good, give the guy a tip. They don't earn enough money for the amount of trouble people like me put them through.

alex wrote: Running a service shop ain't a charity. You establish a false dichotomy above that pits car enthusiasm against profitable business.

A charity? Not sure where that came from...you probably missed the whole point of the discussion.