What is it with the NASA SE people?

If it makes you feel better most other track day clubs will force the same thing on you if you've never run with them. For me it's generally not a bother as I don't mind having an instructor along, the problem is that due to current plague-like events I'm not interested in sharing a car with someone I don't live with so.....  fewer track events for me.

What would be nice is if there was an agreed upon instructor standard in use among all the clubs so each driver could maintain their own personal log book. That way if I want to run with Chin or whoever I can send them a copy of my log book with instructor signatures and let them decide if I need an instructor or not.

I'm still baffled by the outrage here.  All HPDE pricing for Saturday and Sunday is the same regardless of Group.  I generally run with Group 3 (or the equivalent) with THSCC and BMWCCA.  When I ran my first NASA event, they put me back in 2.  Perfect, as I was out exploring tracks I hadn't run in before, and someone in the right seat is helpful.  After a few NASA weekends, I got bumped up into 3 after a check-out ride.  I actually wish I could get instructors into the seat a few times a weekend.

The Friday day is more of a test&tune day than a regular HPDE day.  There is no instruction those days.  It's just a lapping day with alternating groups of HPDE2/3/4 and racers all day.   That's a VERY wide of talent and speed already out on the track at a single time without tossing in any additional unknowns.

Each of the groups cater to a different specific group.  NASA seems to cater their HPDE groups with advancement to racing in mind. It's a racing organization that also does HPDE.  If anything, I think they advance drivers faster than other groups I run with.  BMWCCA seems to have the best classroom instruction of any group I've run with.  THSCC seems to fall someplace in the middle.

I'm so spoiled as an instructor with a non-nasa group. If I'm at a track I haven't been to, I usually hop in the intermediate or novice (in the event that my student is first time) sessions and try to learn the track before getting back in a group I fit better in. Plus paying full price to get on track sounds like a burden.

I will admit, I would enjoy an instructor in my car every now and then. Sometimes I feel like I'm stagnating, but it's usually my own fault for bringing a car I can't trust.

NASA and SCCA HPDEs are the first rung on the ladder to club racing.  If you aren't pursuing a competition license, then there is literally every other track day organization to choose from.  SCCA TNiA is a great format for your stated goal. 

MrFancypants said:

If it makes you feel better most other track day clubs will force the same thing on you if you've never run with them.

This doesn't match my experiences, I've run with a lot of different organizations and never had one questioning my stated experience.

As for sharing cars -- around here at least, organizations who put on schools are either reverting to lead/follow sessions for instruction or dropping events entirely.  Nobody's doing right-seat instruction.

MrFancypants said:

If it makes you feel better most other track day clubs will force the same thing on you if you've never run with them. For me it's generally not a bother as I don't mind having an instructor along, the problem is that due to current plague-like events I'm not interested in sharing a car with someone I don't live with so.....  fewer track events for me.

What would be nice is if there was an agreed upon instructor standard in use among all the clubs so each driver could maintain their own personal log book. That way if I want to run with Chin or whoever I can send them a copy of my log book with instructor signatures and let them decide if I need an instructor or not.

I think the intent of my post was missed more times than understood. It wasn't having to have someone ride along for a check ride, it was teh fact that doing so forced you to pay DOUBLE what a normal event would cost. There was no single day option to have a check ride on the first session then enjoy the rest of the HPDE. That was my #1 issue. I'd have gladly let an instructor in the car for a terror filled session round teh track, I just wasn't willing to be forced into a "must buy" two day event at double the cost due to my own schedule. 

I'm not sure why anyone really runs with NASA/SCCA for HPDE unless you're doing it for the instructor or competing on the same-day events. You'll usually get more track time with one of the many grab-bag groups that run at them. Chin/JustTrackIt/10/10ths are the ones that run around me. Have you checked motorsports-reg for other groups around the time you're looking at getting out? 

Alternatively, just BS your resume if you're confident. I'm not sure how/why NASA/SCCA play hardball with some people, but I've driven with both in HPDE3/4/TT/Advanced(whatever you want to call it) and there are MANY people in those groups that shouldn't be there, so they're obviously not screening *that* well...

Though I can't tell from your original message, have you ever run at the track you're looking at going to before? Because if not, that's standard procedure in most groups - even if you're a professional driver. Usually you can get quick sign-off if you're a good driver.

TBH there's not much difference between hpde1/2 in my experience (though I guess your issue was with extra cost - consider the rest of this a ramble in that case) - usually you get better point-bys in hpde1 since they haven't figured out they're the best drivers in the world yet. hpde2 is filled with people who were just signed off on and starting to solo, easy to overwhelm. hdpe3 in the morning is a "weed-out" where people who think they're hot-E36 M3 signed up for hpde3 and figured out suddenly and violently that they're in over their head (or pig-headidly hit something, hopefully not you) - I find by the afternoon hpde3 has settled down and is fine. HPDE4 is usually the best, since no one signs up for it unless they're confident on the track and in open passing situations. And generally if you try to sign up for it and they don't know who you are they're going to look closely at your resume.

In reply to VegasNick :

I think there's still some confusion here.  It sounds like you were trying to sign up for Friday, the only single-day option available.  There are NO INSTRUCTORS on Friday -- it's solo only.  There would have been nobody there to give you a check ride.  Maybe there were instructors there that day but they would have paid full price and not been "on the clock" so to speak.

The only other option was to sign up for Sat/Sun, which is indeed twice as much because it's 2 days.  There is no option to sign up for Sat only or Sun only, usually.

accordionfolder said:

I'm not sure why anyone really runs with NASA/SCCA for HPDE unless you're doing it for the instructor or competing on the same-day events. You'll usually get more track time with one of the many grab-bag groups that run at them.

For me, personally(and I realize I might be somewhat atypical of track day participants) I run scca events because they're cheap (helps that I'm already a member anyway). Maybe they're not the absolute best value...but they're almost 30% cheaper than any other event I could find running at my local track (mid Ohio). Lately the events are generally somewhat under subscribed which means lots of open track. Also, I don't need 8 hours of track time in one sitting. I'm driving a stock car with stock safety features. I've usually achieved max reasonable pace by about the third session and anything beyond that tends to be just tempting fate or just going out for a cruise. Really what I want out of a track day is about an hour of track time. Which is why I'm planning on doing more track night events next year, because that's exactly what they are, an hour of track time for even cheaper, with the added bonus of not having to wake up at 5am.

In reply to dps214 :

It's closer to 30 minutes than it is to an hour (normally 3 20 minute sessions) on a normal day once you account for warm up and cool down laps (and people running out of talent) at the SCCA/NASA events I've been to. I usually got 4-5 20 minute sessions at a Chin event. But it sounds like you get what you want out of them and that's all that matters. I joined a driving club and it averages out cheaper after the first year and I get probably 4-5x the amount of driving time (and you arrive whenever you want, man I don't miss mornings). This past Monday I showed up at 9am, got 1.5 hours of on track driving, and was home before lunch. But I agree, dollar for dollar it's REALLY hard to beat TNIA. 

NOT A TA said:

It's a safety thing. Even if you have gone through their HPDE program and driven solo at their events and then take a couple years off you have to start in HPDE 1 your first time back out on the track so they can check you out and make sure you remember all of their flags procedures, protocols etc.  BTDT I started racing in Karts as a kid and I'd already been through HPDE with the SCDA up at Lime Rock when I started going to N.A.S.A. SE events at Road Atlanta and still had to start in HPDE 1 then I took a couple years off and again had to get checked off in HPDE 1 at Sebring the first time back. I haven't been on track in several years and so I'll have to start my first day back in HPDE 1 again when I get back on track and I'm OK with that. It'll force me to review my flags and what not and usually their instructors are very good so they'll make little suggestions for a particular track because they know it so well.

 

they could have at least explained that in the letter they sent to Nick.  I am sure if they had, he would have been more understanding.  I do think the amount of money they want is a bit excessive though.

accordionfolder said:

In reply to dps214 :

It's closer to 30 minutes than it is to an hour (normally 3 20 minute sessions) on a normal day once you account for warm up and cool down laps (and people running out of talent) at the SCCA/NASA events I've been to. I usually got 4-5 20 minute sessions at a Chin event. But it sounds like you get what you want out of them and that's all that matters. I joined a driving club and it averages out cheaper after the first year and I get probably 4-5x the amount of driving time (and you arrive whenever you want, man I don't miss mornings). This past Monday I showed up at 9am, got 1.5 hours of on track driving, and was home before lunch. But I agree, dollar for dollar it's REALLY hard to beat TNIA. 

At least in this part of the country a scca pdx is five sessions for $250, though I imagine that could carry significantly by region.. From what I saw looking into other groups it seemed like 5-7 sessions for $3-400. Tnia is three sessions for like $150 I think? The one I did a couple of years ago was the perfect amount of time to be content with the day but want to come back, rather than being happy to wait another year like I usually am after a pdx. The only reason I haven't already gone that route is because the nearest track that has tnia events is 2.5 hours away.

An explanation email would be the key for me. Only in my less better moments will I give someone a duplicate word for word reply to a request for clarification. 

In reply to P3PPY :

Agreed on that front, dick move for sure.