Anyone who’s seen any of the “Terminator” films knows that the AI rebellion that will wipe out all humans is inevitable. Heck, AI is already coming for some jobs–like conducting tedious legal research or writing nonsensical car magazine stories–but now it may be sticki…
After we finished that day, I recall discussing a third option: Both.
A human driving instructor fits the car of a student with a Garmin Catalyst (or similar), sends the student out and then interprets the recorded data with the student to improve lap times.
This way, the instructor could potentially instruct multiple students–and without having to ride along in any cars.
A+ Futurama references.
Personally I don't do that well with classroom coaching or data. I seem to learn best from chasing another similar car that's slightly faster than me. Not only do you get an exact feel for their line and braking points, but you know that if they can do it then you can do it too. It's also super obvious if there are spots where you're gaining on them. This type of lead follow is easier to do on iRacing than IRL but it is a great help in both areas. That said, it's best for finding tenths, not 16 seconds!
Colin Wood said:After we finished that day, I recall discussing a third option: Both.
A human driving instructor fits the car of a student with a Garmin Catalyst (or similar), sends the student out and then interprets the recorded data with the student to improve lap times.
This way, the instructor could potentially instruct multiple students–and without having to ride along in any cars.
a few years ago I had an instructor who was willing to take my car out for a session with me in the passanger seat. After this I was able to compare the two laps (his fastest vs my fastest). I did that /w a app based data collection and the only way that I could compare them was to watch the video side by side, with a catalyst running it would be very possible for me to drive and then compare my fastest lap to an instructors fastest lap. If you do it on the same day /w the same car in differing sessions you should be able to determine line differences, braking points, etc.
the other benefit of an instructor taking your car for a drive is that its possible to see the potential of the car which is ALWAYS more than I am extracting out of it and enables me to avoid spending money on parts and instead focus on track time.
After we did this story I got the chance to have J.G. right seat with me at the FIRM in our project MK7 GTI and I think both the Catalyst and a real coach is the answer. Like in the story the Catalyst helped a lot to get me going quicker but having J.G. there to explain why I was going quicker was super helpful and it was nice to be able to talk the track through with someone vs just getting instructions from a computer.
Chris Tropea said:After we did this story I got the chance to have J.G. right seat with me at the FIRM in our project MK7 GTI and I think both the Catalyst and a real coach is the answer. Like in the story the Catalyst helped a lot to get me going quicker but having J.G. there to explain why I was going quicker was super helpful and it was nice to be able to talk the track through with someone vs just getting instructions from a computer.
i think this is also key, having a good instructor. a good teacher has to meet the student where they are in the learning journey. if you're 5-6 seconds off pace the advice needed is probably different than if you're .5 or .6 seconds off pace.
I'm just here for the Futurama references.
A few of the folks I TT with have a Catalyst. I've heard some say the AI coach is probably more useful for beginning drivers but a couple of very experienced (and fast) drivers have said that the AI has helped them on new tracks as well as ones they've run a lot of laps on.
It will be interesting to see how AI evolves for applications like this. It's in its infancy now, who knows what the future will bring.
FarmerTed said:I'm just here for the Futurama references.
A few of the folks I TT with have a Catalyst. I've heard some say the AI coach is probably more useful for beginning drivers but a couple of very experienced (and fast) drivers have said that the AI has helped them on new tracks as well as ones they've run a lot of laps on.
It will be interesting to see how AI evolves for applications like this. It's in its infancy now, who knows what the future will bring.
Yeah I definitely agree that this technology has some real potential in this space. This particular application does a good job at leveraging what I think is one of the strengths of the current state of AI, which is data aggregation and comparison.
I still think it's a more useful tool for drivers of some level of experience, though. A totally green novice is going to be asked to do things that they don't fully grasp how to attempt, or even what some of those attempts entail. So I think for the true noobs, a meat instructor is better able to assess not only their skill level but their knowledge level and knowledge of how to execute what skill set they have.
JG Pasterjak said:A meat instructor is better able to assess not only their skill level but their knowledge level and knowledge of how to execute what skill set they have.
I think we need to make you a t-shirt that says "meat instructor" on it for the next time you're in a driving coach role.
My son's first track experience was during COViD, so they were doing lead-follow. He was super green, and didn't really understand the goals/intent of the instructor, so the lead-follow with signals, etc., was sub-optimal, to say the least. I think this is like turning a total novice loose with Garmin. As one of the first commenters said, a combination of good data and a ready analysis tool, COMBINED with an in-car instructor, is the key to getting a novice off the ground and flying solo competently. It seems like the Garmin is more useful for at least a moderately experienced driver who at least understands what they should be doing with the suggestions and guidance they're getting from the Garmin.
HiFiGuy said:My son's first track experience was during COViD, so they were doing lead-follow. He was super green, and didn't really understand the goals/intent of the instructor, so the lead-follow with signals, etc., was sub-optimal, to say the least. I think this is like turning a total novice loose with Garmin. As one of the first commenters said, a combination of good data and a ready analysis tool, COMBINED with an in-car instructor, is the key to getting a novice off the ground and flying solo competently. It seems like the Garmin is more useful for at least a moderately experienced driver who at least understands what they should be doing with the suggestions and guidance they're getting from the Garmin.
my first track day was the year before covid and my second was during covid, thank you; I now have a new racer excuse... "nobody taught me..."
I think they compliment each other. The Garmin alone can only help you refine what you're already doing. If you're way off line it can only help so much. An instructor can help get someone on the right line a lot quicker because they know where it is and can actually tell you. An instructor otoh will get you up and running, but without data its hard to be objective about if what you're doing is working. Good enough when you are super far off the pace, but difficult when you're trying to find tenths here and there. Together they give an instructor the data they need to make good suggestions further into the learning process. It allows you to still have feedback even if an instructor isn't available all the time. Its easier to spend a few minutes going over someone's session than being in car with them all the time. Heck with the app features you can share after the fact and remotely now.
Where it really falls down is the depth of the data logging. No basic obd2 data. No way to export the telemetry to external programs for deeper analysis. Other minor quibbles too. The camera quality is horrible for sharing online. No support for autocross even as a basic timer. The speaker is entirely too quiet to be heard on track with the windows down. All the telemetry and sharing options in the companion app really should be available on the device itself.
I'm starting to get to the point where I want some of those more advanced features or I need to move on to a device that's a little less friendly in order to get it.
In reply to Colin Wood :
Agreed, but you don't need a $1,000 Garmin Catalyst for that. There are any number of good GPS data acquisition devices (including your Phone, which has limitations) that cost significantly less and offer way more flexibility in post-session analysis than the Garmin does.
A good coach is someone who can understand how the student learns, is able to identify areas for improvement and is able to communicate efficiently while being able to interpret data and pinpoint those areas for improvement. The point in the article about the coach being able to address the how and why, and not just the what, is spot on!
Data --> Insight --> Knowledge --> Wisdom
A data/video collection tool gets you in the game at Stage 1. Self-coaching and digital analysis tools can get you to Stage 2, and maybe into Stage 3 if you're really determined. A human coach can get you the rest of it, because IMO it doesn't happen without somebody to share first-hand experience.
I used to do track days at Waterford Hills with the MGB GT. Was a lot of fun but I was pretty slow and plateaued . Was not sure if it was me or the car. So I went out with an instructor who was also a very fast driver. After a couple of laps he told me that there was nothing technically wrong with my driving, but I would never be much quicker because my imagination was too good. "You are focused on what could go wrong at any moment, rather than how to set up for the next corner" "That will forever keep you from using that last inch of track surface needed to go fast".
He was right. "Never go on a track unless you are mentally and emotionally prepared to leave your car and your health in the dumpster on the way out" No AI could have detected what he did.
NOHOME said:I used to do track days at Waterford Hills with the MGB GT. Was a lot of fun but I was pretty slow and plateaued . Was not sure if it was me or the car. So I went out with an instructor who was also a very fast driver. After a couple of laps he told me that there was nothing technically wrong with my driving, but I would never be much quicker because my imagination was too good. "You are focused on what could go wrong at any moment, rather than how to set up for the next corner" "That will forever keep you from using that last inch of track surface needed to go fast".
He was right. "Never go on a track unless you are mentally and emotionally prepared to leave your car and your health in the dumpster on the way out" No AI could have detected what he did.
counter point, a track day isn't a race... I would rather have fun while managing my risk, there is no winning at a track day, only losing.
I spent this past weekend at Barber Motorsports Park recording 20 sessions driven by myself and my two students. After reviewing the "Opportunities" I will say that there was some good info, but some of the advice was downright goofy, especially numerous lines through corners with abrupt and unadvised course changes.
My answer to the question posed is "depends" and the best answer is, probably, "both".
The Catalyst is super user friendly and I can present post-session coaching much more rapidly than with my ApexPro or VBox Sport units, especially videos of laps. I will continue to use it until something better comes along.
DaleCarter said:The Catalyst is super user friendly and I can present post-session coaching much more rapidly than with my ApexPro or VBox Sport units, especially videos of laps. I will continue to use it until something better comes along.
This is where its value resides for many. It's just a solid, easy-to-use device for extracting combined data/video quickly in an all-in-one unit.
I'm still a die-hard AIM Solo II DL guy for data, with a Roadkeeper for video/data combo...the latter mostly for social media and long-term reference laps for competition (overcoming old-guy CRS). The AIM gives me everything I need to compare laps between sessions, but I've been looking at squiggly lines for decades...long before in-car video was even a thing.
DaleCarter said:I spent this past weekend at Barber Motorsports Park recording 20 sessions driven by myself and my two students. After reviewing the "Opportunities" I will say that there was some good info, but some of the advice was downright goofy, especially numerous lines through corners with abrupt and unadvised course changes.
My answer to the question posed is "depends" and the best answer is, probably, "both".
The Catalyst is super user friendly and I can present post-session coaching much more rapidly than with my ApexPro or VBox Sport units, especially videos of laps. I will continue to use it until something better comes along.
Yeah the real win of the Catalyst is how dramatically Garmin crushed the learning curve for data analysis. As andy said, some of us have been looking at squiggles for years and it's now a natural language. Honestly I look at speed trace and track map way more than I look at video. But for someone coming to data for the first time, or someone who just doesn't want to deal with the added complexity of a secondary device, the Cata is HUGE.
Really curious if they continue development on it, or introduce a next generation device at some point.
I'm imagining how someone managed to spin out in an Elantra N. Then I remembered that I did it once, too. No one is perfect :)
As a counter-point, I thought I'd direct folks to what can happen when you blindly follow the advice of an AI coaching device.
Have a look at the FB page for Blind Rhino, a relative newcomer to track days and time trials, who wrecked his newly track-prepped C6 Corvette into the wall leading onto the front straight at NCM for SCCA TT Nats this year. His Thanksgving day post sums up his experience there. Lots of factors in play, but the final straw was ignoring his own inner "oh crap meter" and doing what the Garmin coach kept suggesting..."carry more speed through T23".
Link to the page here...scroll down to the T-Day post: https://www.facebook.com/blindrhinoracing
AI is only as good as the algorithms built into it, and the data fed therein.
Andy Hollis said:AI is only as good as the algorithms built into it, and the data fed therein.
One of the things that all of the (human) coaches I have worked with have emphasized is that just because THEY can carry a particular speed through a high speed/consequence corner, doesn't mean that I can. I mean, yes, in principle the car is capable of it, but there's more to it than just "man up and brake less".
Andy Hollis said:As a counter-point, I thought I'd direct folks to what can happen when you blindly follow the advice of an AI coaching device.
Have a look at the FB page for Blind Rhino, a relative newcomer to track days and time trials, who wrecked his newly track-prepped C6 Corvette into the wall leading onto the front straight at NCM for SCCA TT Nats this year. His Thanksgving day post sums up his experience there. Lots of factors in play, but the final straw was ignoring his own inner "oh crap meter" and doing what the Garmin coach kept suggesting..."carry more speed through T23".
Link to the page here...scroll down to the T-Day post: https://www.facebook.com/blindrhinoracing
AI is only as good as the algorithms built into it, and the data fed therein.
In theory the Garmin will only suggest actions you have actually achieved before. Its not like it will keep suggesting shorter braking distances when you have never successfully braked that short AND saved time. There are a couple ways that can screw up- You let someone drive on your profile to give a data trace, your car and/or conditions changes, or maybe just errors in data collection- bad gps data for instance. I'm not 100% sure what the time limits are, but IME it seems to keep coaching tips limited to the same day.
That's not to say the AI won't lead you down some bad paths. It doesn't seem to know enough to suggest favoring one corner over another, just what is the biggest gap. It can lead you to some local minimums and its easy to get stuck if you don't start experimenting on your own. It doesn't come up with ideas on its own. You need to execute and it'll tell you what worked.
Reading the Blind Rhino incident a couple things might have happened 1) The Garmin didn't say go faster. That means at entry he was already at least his fastest entry speed for the day. He anticipated it rather than being told it on the lap of the incident. He may have overshot (you could pull speed trace data if you wanted to) 2) He may have had tires slightly greasier than that one time- car and/or condition as above. 3) Other driver error like wrong entry, not smooth, etc, etc. that could impact anyone. Anything that meant he wouldn't be able to take the corner at the same speed as previously.
I'd put the blame more of the feet of the driver than the AI given what he posted. It's not a lot different than seeing a lot of green on your lap timer and doing something you know is risky in order to hang on to it.
After driving several days at Barber and Road Atlanta with the Catalyst, I am pretty impressed. That said, it can't replace a competent instructor and not even close to any of the pro coaches I have used. As a self study aid, it's pretty strong. The voice in my comms is a good reminder of basic techniques for braking points, apexes, etc.
The REAL strength of the Catalyst over other units is how incredibly easy it is to use, especially for novices and people who don;t want to take deep dives into data traces.
theruleslawyer said:I'd put the blame more of the feet of the driver than the AI given what he posted. It's not a lot different than seeing a lot of green on your lap timer and doing something you know is risky in order to hang on to it.
Ask yourself this...would he have tried to carry more speed in T23 on that final lap if the Garmin coach had not been talking in his ear suggesting it every other preceding lap?
As for "hanging on to the green", the best strategy there is to NOT do something risky for the rest of the lap. You've already done something quicker early in the lap, so hanging on just means maintaining status quo for the duration.
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