What's the appeal of diesel?

Fuel economy, mostly for the ecological impact, and torque.

We don't actually daily drive the daily driver enough for fuel savings to come close to paying for the difference. Given how little we drive, it actually doesn't make much difference ecologically what we in particular drive, but we plan to vote with our dollars for more efficient, economical, ecological vehicles.

VW quality issues gave us pause, and pause led to giving in to my desire to try owning an honest-to-gosh fast-from-the-factory car, a WRX. Having discovered that the turbo lag lasts half as long as most of my daily-driving thrust requests, I feel that one's ticked off my list, and I'm mostly concerned with adequate power and decent handling for the replacement.

For now, we're planning either TDI wagon or CX-5 if they bring us a diesel. Wish they'd brougt the Mazda6 wagon... A Mazda5 diesel would also be awesome.

If the Volt weren't so pricey, we'd probably be looking there, too. We're okay with paying a premium for economy we won't actually benefit from in the name of reinforcing the desire for such cars, but that dang thing is about a third again more than the WRX or TDI wagon...

Long-winded, but that's why I'm okay with the diesel premium even though it doesn't make sense from a financial savings standpoint.

I'm also still hoping that biodiesel improves. I had a bad go-round (which may have been down to that specific truck tank sludge), and am aware that at present it doesn't fully scale, but I'm curious to see where it goes (though I'm not putting it in a new $30k vehicle against the manufacturer's stipulations).

JG Pasterjak wrote:

Sonic wrote: Fuel economy and longevity, in that order...that's why I would be attracted to a diesel in my next car. In a truck, add towing ease/capability to the list.

All of these I get, but I'm starting to believe the economy thing is a false economy (in cars, not trucks). A car that gets 42mpg of diesel at $3.89 per gallon costs about the same to operate as a car that gets about 35mpg of gas at $3.39 per gallon. That's the part I'm having trouble with. If diesel were priced more reasonably I think things would be very different.

The US isn't really that "great" for Diesels, for a couple of reasons:

• Fuel in general is cheaper by a large margin compared to the main Diesel markets like Europe. Once you're paying $8/gal or more, the picture changes slightly.
• In a lot of the markets in Europe, Diesel is either cheaper than gas (Germany, for example. although your annual vehicle tax bill is higher for a Diesel) or the price difference is less than it is here.
• The VW TDI you get in the US is different to the one in Europe due to the difference in emissions legislation. Most European Diesels will not pass emissions over here. I think that affects fuel mileage - the Hyundai i30 I had as a rental in the UK (their vesion of the Elantra) did 60mpg (UK, so it's the bigger gallon) compared to about 40-ish I would have got out of a gas one. That's a difference worth having.

I like Diesels for certain applications like full-size trucks or SUVs where I think they make a lot of sense. TDIs are a little boring but as an appliance, the one I had worked very well.

Our fuel costs aren't high enough to justify the extra MPG when you factor purchase price and price of fuel (gas vs. diesel) unless you're putting on a LOT of miles and/or towing. If you were in Europe, it's a completely different story because of fuel prices and purchase prices. There's a niche for all types of fuel (diesel, natural gas, gasoline, EV, hybrid, etc.) but for the typical family commuter in the US, I don't think diesel makes a ton of sense. For tow rigs and long haul trucks, diesel is still a no-brainer in my mind.

Bryce

edit: Looks like BoxheadTim and I had practically the same response at the same time....oops!

JG Pasterjak wrote:

Sonic wrote: Fuel economy and longevity, in that order...that's why I would be attracted to a diesel in my next car. In a truck, add towing ease/capability to the list.

All of these I get, but I'm starting to believe the economy thing is a false economy (in cars, not trucks). A car that gets 42mpg of diesel at $3.89 per gallon costs about the same to operate as a car that gets about 35mpg of gas at $3.39 per gallon. That's the part I'm having trouble with. If diesel were priced more reasonably I think things would be very different. jg

The car that is getting 42mpg with diesel will probably be a lot nicer and more equipped than the one that is getting 35mpg.

Love my TDI.

Comparison between real world numbers on Jettas:

120 miles a day at 45 mpg in the diesel. Diesel at $4.00 = $10.67 120 miles a day at 31 mpg in the gas. gas at $3.15= $12.19

Also my best tank avg was all hwy at 56 mpg at 65 mph with cruise on. This is a 6 speed '12 Jetta. Torque is fun and longevity/resale is always in the back of my mind too. Lots of half million mile diesels

TBH even in Europe Diesel only makes sense if you drive more than 10k miles/year if you buy new. Used is a slightly different story as the price difference is narrowing simply because more and more new cars are being bought with Diesel engines.

And there's the running it on grease. What's weird about people who do grease conversions is the a weird overlap of cultures: your hyper-libertarian survivalist crazies and socialist dirty hippie crazies clash hard on the Greasecar board.

The resale value actually is a big difference between the diesel and gas cars.

JG Pasterjak wrote: So, I've now spent a few weeks with our new VW Beetle TDi project car and I'm beginning to form my own opinions, but I'm curious what the internet says about the appeal of diesel. It seems that every time someone mentions a car (the Mazda CX5 comes to mind), several folks chime in that they'd buy if if there were a diesel version made. So what's the appeal? Speak. jg

go to euorpe and drive the MINI Cooper SD. i drove an entire tank through a rental one we got for a day to drive through the countryside. it. was. amazing. lots of torque, 6 speed, and great suspension.

auto stop/start at lights, no smell, no smoke, no vibrations, i drove the crap out of it on some back roads and by the end of the trip, the little computer said that the average economy (didn't reset before leaving) was, iirc, 44mpg. now, those are miles per imperial gallon but it was showing low 30s when i picked it up that morning.

also neat that on flat ground at a steady 60 mph, it would show right around 60 mpg. drop down to 55 and it would be over 70. then if you wanted you could mash the throttle and with little to no turbo lag it would blast up to 100 mph or so. past 100 it would start running out of steam.

supposedly they're coming here for 2014, when they do it'll be seriously tempting to go get one.

I guess I'm an irrational Super Duty buyer - I paid the premium for a Cummins But that thing was made to tow, I think it's had a car trailer hitched on the back for something like 80% of its miles.

One thing I have noticed when towing across the country is that, while gas prices vary quite a bit, diesel prices tend to be fairly consistent. I blame/credit the long-haul truckers for that - if a state has expensive diesel, they'll just fill up across the border. But this also means that there are areas of the country where diesel makes more sense from a financial standpoint than others.

The delta between the two varies quite a bit as well. In the past year, I've seen diesel swing between 14 and 90 cents/gallon more than regular locally. Obviously, the math changes pretty dramatically. Right now, it's at a big delta as diesel is still where it was a year ago and gas has dropped.

Economy and relative ease of service. I bought my 2003 TDI wagon new. Just turned 303K miles. Nobody has turned a wrench on it except me. Even recall work I did myself other than risk letting a dealer tech touch my car.

I drive 100+ miles a day and like not having to fill up every 3-4 days. Using my E30 as a DD last month while I changed the timing belt in the TDI was murder in this regard. Going from a real-world 50 mpg down to 25 mpg was tough, even if I was spending 45 cents less per gallon.

Other downsides: I have to plan for fill-ups since not a lot of stations carry diesel. Especially since I usually buy diesel in NJ vs PA since it's ~30 cents cheaper.

Would I buy one now? Hard to say. When I bought my car gas was still under $2/gal and only geeks and hippies bought diesels. Even though I had to order my car, I still paid over $2000 under MSRP. I don't think VW dealers have discounted TDI's at all since Katrina... Because of Katrina, I was never upside-down on the loan for my car despite putting little money down and the payback for the TDI option was pretty quick - especially compared to the V8 van I was driving at the time.

Resale value: Even now with over 300K miles it's worth a surprising amount.

In PA, the car is old enough that it doesn't get an emissions inspection, saving a few $ every year.

For me, it was the right car at the right time and doubt I'll get rid of it until at least 500K miles. If I had to replace it tomorrow, I'd probably get a MINI.

My Cummins was a diesel for all the wrong reasons. I paid a premium for an expensive engine that got decent mileage for a truck (20 mpg), but was still crap for a commuter. Unless I'm buying a truck specifically to tow a large trailer, I don't see me getting another one. The Cummins was fun when I had a bed full of firewood and it would accelerate up grades in 5th gear like it was empty, but I'm not sure it was that much fun for the extra money I paid vs a gas truck.

I'm seriously considering a Sprinter to replace the truck, but that is more because a 170" WB EXT Sprinter offers a ton more cargo/camping space than any domestic van short of a box truck. The diesel MPG is secondary.

When I bought a new Peugeot 504 diesel wagon in the '70's I just wanted "something different."

Low-end torques and no electrical system (in a normal diesel) for off-road and towing. I'd never want one in a car.

For me its a no-brainer on things that I find important:

Torque: duh
Reliability: in many applications diesels are more mechanically reliable. The Cummins ISB in 26,000 lb GVW commercial applications has a typical rebuild interval of about 600k
MPG: comparing the same vehicles, many diesels get dramatically better mileage. My Ford gas van with a 4.6L got 12-14 highway. My diesel van gets 18-20.
Safety: Diesel fuel is very hard to ignite, and when it does ignite it doesn't burn as quickly (outside of the engine anyway.) The chances of dying in a fiery crash are reduced. This way I just die in a smelly, oily crash.
Simplicity: Not having an ignition system entirely removes a whole potentially problematic system from the car.
Cost of ownership: A lot of people think this is bogus and whine about $50 oil changes and $15 fuel filters. I call BS. I maintained a massive fleet of vehicles for a utility company. Even after you factor in the increased cost of purchase and increased maintenance, once you factor in fuel savings and resale value the argument is invalid. Hands down, our diesel fleet vehicles kept WAY more money in our pockets than the gas. Anyone who doubts that should go look up some 1-ton trucks on Ebay and select fuel: gas. Then do nothing but switch from gas to diesel and see the massive difference.

I don't know what else you need to do to get this to work in your car but besides engine life and torque this might be another benifit gas+waste veg oil

I think a big thing is that diesels in a commuter car's time has come and gone. There was a time (from around 1994-2010) where the mpg of gas cars and the amount of money gas vs diesel was at made diesel cars worth it.

With the advent of direct injection and small turbo gas engines, this is not the case anymore.

Having said that, show me the MPG of a gas sedan similiar in size to a Jetta and claim it gets the same mpg. As others have said, if you drive a LOT, the diesels make sense. And they also last longer.

For plenty of people, what they want is a car that is useful all around. I need to tow EXACTLY 6000 pounds and haul 500 pounds in the bed of my truck with another 500 pounds of human in the truck. The old 350TBI motor doesn't cut it. While many will argue with me, getting 10usmpg towing through the mountains with the new 5.3L chevy's doesnt either. What I need is a diesel that makes a bit over 300tq @ 2000rpm. That is easily accomplished with a turbo diesel motor of 3.0L's. And unloaded, ala diesel cherokee, will knock down 30usmpg on the highway.

Oh, which leads me to another thing. Diesels are much better at being efficient at a specific rpm point, whereas gas motors tend to be more efficient across their entire usable rpm range. Hence why they can pull out super numbers on the highway.

We've had five VW Jetta TDI's in the family because they make for extremely practical, comfortable and efficient commuting appliances. 50+ mpg highway and 40+ mpg in mixed driving is easily doable.

Alan Cesar wrote: And there's the running it on grease. What's weird about people who do grease conversions is the a weird overlap of cultures: your hyper-libertarian survivalist crazies and socialist dirty hippie crazies clash hard on the Greasecar board. The resale value actually is a big difference between the diesel and gas cars.

Grease cars are just about a banned topic on the tdiclub forum. Grease conversions slowly kill a lot of the newer tech diesels as opposed to the older idi style motors. If I were to run grease it would be in something 80s and older or something with a billion miles on it and I don't care about.

JG Pasterjak wrote:

Sonic wrote: Fuel economy and longevity, in that order...that's why I would be attracted to a diesel in my next car. In a truck, add towing ease/capability to the list.

All of these I get, but I'm starting to believe the economy thing is a false economy (in cars, not trucks). A car that gets 42mpg of diesel at $3.89 per gallon costs about the same to operate as a car that gets about 35mpg of gas at $3.39 per gallon. That's the part I'm having trouble with. If diesel were priced more reasonably I think things would be very different. jg

My 1992 300D gets 32-34 on the highway, 30 on average. Compare that with a 1992 Taurus or Crown Vic. Not only do they get less economy, they usually are dead long before 303,000 miles. For me, specifically it was the ability to run veggie oil. The lack of fun is more than made up for when I only buy 3-4 tanks of fuel a year, not a month.

That being said, diesel fuel is more of a racket that gasoline. At least gas fluctuates up AND down. By me, diesel has been right around $4 a gallon for at least a year. Why is a product that's refines LESS than gas 33% more expensive? I don't buy the whole 'demand' thing. Gas is in demand as well last I checked.

DrBoost wrote:

JG Pasterjak wrote:

Sonic wrote: Fuel economy and longevity, in that order...that's why I would be attracted to a diesel in my next car. In a truck, add towing ease/capability to the list.

All of these I get, but I'm starting to believe the economy thing is a false economy (in cars, not trucks). A car that gets 42mpg of diesel at $3.89 per gallon costs about the same to operate as a car that gets about 35mpg of gas at $3.39 per gallon. That's the part I'm having trouble with. If diesel were priced more reasonably I think things would be very different. jg

My 1992 300D gets 32-34 on the highway, 30 on average. Compare that with a 1992 Taurus or Crown Vic. Not only do they get less economy, they usually are dead long before 303,000 miles. For me, specifically it was the ability to run veggie oil. The lack of fun is more than made up for when I only buy 3-4 tanks of fuel a year, not a month. That being said, diesel fuel is more of a racket that gasoline. At least gas fluctuates up AND down. By me, diesel has been right around $4 a gallon for at least a year. Why is a product that's refines LESS than gas 33% more expensive? I don't buy the whole 'demand' thing. Gas is in demand as well last I checked.

Why is a product that's refines LESS than gas 33% more expensive? I don't buy the whole 'demand' thing. Gas is in demand as well last I checked.

That arguement used to be true but ULSD is a pretty refined product now with other lubricity additives put in now that sulfur is removed.

On the fuel cost issue.

I have a friend that all the vehicles in his family are diesel fueled including the generator he uses in his work as a home remodeler. To cut costs (Not legal) he buys "Off Highway" diesel fuel in bulk and fuels all his vehicles with it. I also know that many farmers have diesel tractors, etc. and I would bet that they may just by accident mind you fuel their diesel PU truck, etc. with that "off highway" fuel. Just sayin it could happen.

jimbbski wrote: On the fuel cost issue. I have a friend that all the vehicles in his family are diesel fueled including the generator he uses in his work as a home remodeler. To cut costs (Not legal) he buys "Off Highway" diesel fuel in bulk and fuels all his vehicles with it. I also know that many farmers have diesel tractors, etc. and I would bet that they may just by accident mind you fuel their diesel PU truck, etc. with that "off highway" fuel. Just sayin it could happen.

My friends roommate did that in his 96 Cummins with 250k on it. The cop that pulled him over was wise to it, tested the fuel, and he was fined per the mileage of his truck assuming it had all been off road diesel. He did landscaping and basically that wiped him out. Not worth the risk!

There is a perception that Diesel is cheaper to operate and that if you run a lot of miles, this tips even further in your favour.

I have yet to see this pan out. The complexity of modern diesel and the cost of parts compared to gasoline engines pretty much kills the deal. The fact that diesel is more expensive (used to be cheaper go figure)

Last diesel I drove was a Renault Laguna with a 6 speed. That thing pulled like a train and kept up on the Autobahn. Very different than a high strung gasoline engine and entertaining in its own right; you shift a lot and at low rpm.

Until larger trucks can get better than diesel MPG, a diesel will always be attractive.

In fact, I'd love a diesel in a Jeep, or in a small truck.

The US doesn't have any pickup that'll get over 30mpg with stock engine. Maybe, just maybe a Ranger without some eco-mods may get over 30mpg highway, but doubtful.

I started quite a few topics related to MPG with pickups, and it seems that the only way to get better than 28mpg is an engine swap.

NOHOME wrote: There is a perception that Diesel is cheaper to operate and that if you run a lot of miles, this tips even further in your favour. I have yet to see this pan out. The complexity of modern diesel and the cost of parts compared to gasoline engines pretty much kills the deal. The fact that diesel is more expensive (used to be cheaper go figure)

I can tell you that a Cummins will get better fuel economy as it breaks in. 25k later, I'm seeing about 10% better efficiency on my drive to work. It's getting better when the truck's in harness too.

I might be taking the 2012 Tundra on my next long tow with the two-car trailer. It'll be interesting to see how the gas truck feels after so many miles with diesel power. I love the exhaust brake and the unstoppability of the diesel on the highway, but I've never had a modern gas engine that was this well rated to tow with. I have to say it's night and day between a Dodge 2500 diesel and the previous Tundra with the 4.7, though. I'm not even sure that truck could tow the big trailer.

Soot belching, coal burning, stinking, rattling harbingers of hell.

They all should have been legislated off the road or ordered to clean up 40 years ago.

Other than that - to each his own...