well, I do not know about the fob.. but I have been told that if I lose the keys to my saab.. I might as well part out the car as the cost of a new computer and key is more than the car is worth.
I can't imagine that the fobs are any cheaper
well, I do not know about the fob.. but I have been told that if I lose the keys to my saab.. I might as well part out the car as the cost of a new computer and key is more than the car is worth.
I can't imagine that the fobs are any cheaper
I don't like talking cars, or any of the gimmicks that have come since. The larger point, though is summed up in the Toyota debacle right now. An easily turned key, as opposed to having to push the stop button for three seconds while your car is accelerating towards a group of bystanders........ Nah, if you're too dumb to find neutral, having a key to turn off won't help.
I miss the high beam floor switch in my old jeep. It was convenient.
Too dumb to find neutral? Wow pretty judgemental eh? I would not expect the average person to be prepared for a stuck throttle or unintend acceleration. The average person expects a car to do what it is supposed to, but if you want to call that dumb then ok.
There was testamony a week or to ago where the drive tried nuetral and reverse and the car kept accelerating. Maybe they were dumb too?
Oh ya and don't forget the security issue that is like a giant hole that thieves can do a cakewalk through: http://jalopnik.com/5477282/the-electronic-key-impressioner-is-a-car-thiefs-wet-dream
Streetwiseguy wrote: I don't like talking cars, or any of the gimmicks that have come since. The larger point, though is summed up in the Toyota debacle right now. An easily turned key, as opposed to having to push the stop button for three seconds while your car is accelerating towards a group of bystanders........ Nah, if you're too dumb to find neutral, having a key to turn off won't help.
Streetwiseguy wrote: An easily turned key, as opposed to having to push the stop button for three seconds while your car is accelerating towards a group of bystanders........ Nah, if you're too dumb to find neutral, having a key to turn off won't help.
troof.
vazbmw wrote: There was testamony a week or to ago where the drive tried nuetral and reverse and the car kept accelerating. Maybe they were dumb too?
I heard that lady speak. Operator error at its finest! What a moron.
vazbmw wrote: There was testamony a week or to ago where the drive tried nuetral and reverse and the car kept accelerating. Maybe they were dumb too?
Not to take away from your point (as I agree with you), but that lady is not a good point of reference. There's no way she shifted that car into reverse but besides that point, she sold the thing without disclosing the "problem" and the new owner put 25K trouble free miles on it. Sometimes it really is operator error due to lack of smarts...
Now the Trooper and family in Cali, that was not "operator error" and the ending sucked.
P71 wrote:vazbmw wrote: There was testamony a week or to ago where the drive tried nuetral and reverse and the car kept accelerating. Maybe they were dumb too?Not to take away from your point (as I agree with you), but that lady is not a good point of reference. There's no way she shifted that car into reverse but besides that point, she *sold* the thing without disclosing the "problem" and the new owner put 25K trouble free miles on it. Sometimes it really is operator error due to lack of smarts... Now the Trooper and family in Cali, that was not "operator error" and the ending sucked.
I'm glad that someone else brought up the "infamous" Toyota testimony lady.
I think I watched for about 15 seconds before deciding how frickin' obvious it was that she had been coached on exactly what to say. I also really enjoyed the tear-filled account of her calling her husband, and praying to God to stop the car.
Of course, to my non-enthusiast family and friends, I am a massive jerk for even daring to question her motives.
I need a vacation, or maybe I should put that money towards a brandy-new Toyota. 
daytonaer wrote:Run_Away wrote: I work at a Nissan dealership and I hate them, simply because you have to have the brake pedal depressed for it to start the motor. This means getting in the car every time you want to start the engine, something that is a pain in the ass because the hoist doesn't leave much room to open the door.I looked at some new nissans on the dealer lot, if you put the key in the door lock cylinder, turn it (don't know what way) and HOLD it in the rotated position for a few seconds it will start the engine. Surprised me when I was trying to unlock the doors.
Really? That's not mentioned as any of the functions in the service manual. I'll have to try that out. Do you know what year/model this was? So you actually take the mechanical portion of the I-Key out of the fob to do this?
vazbmw wrote: Too dumb to find neutral? Wow pretty judgemental eh? I would not expect the average person to be prepared for a stuck throttle or unintend acceleration. The average person expects a car to do what it is supposed to, but if you want to call that dumb then ok.
It once happened to me unexpectedly in my 1990 Cherokee...the "off road" floormat had gotten wedged up and caught the accelerator and I couldn't kick it loose as I approached cars sitting at a stoplight.
I (as one would think would be someone's first move) hit the brakes hard (brakes > throttle), and even with crappy XJ brakes (the worst ever) it slowed down. A split second later I shifted into neutral and then reached up and killed the engine with the key. It's was scary for about a second but then instincts kicked in and dealt with it.
vazbmw wrote: There was testamony a week or to ago where the drive tried nuetral and reverse and the car kept accelerating. Maybe they were dumb too?
That lady was so clearly full of crap, it was obvious. Most likely she's just trying to take advantage of the situation and get some money out of Toyota (hey, it's the American way these days, right).
She couldn't have shifted into reverse, should have had no problem shifting into neutral. When I heard this, the next time I took our 4Runner out I tried to shift into "N" while accelerating (not letting off the gas at all) and it shifted just fine and the revs kept rising but the car slowed down.
Could have also downshifted into "2" or "1" and the car would have bounced the rev limiter at 30mph in 1st.
So yes, she was stupid.....there are plenty of people on the roads who don't have the driving skill or the common sense and really shouldn't be allowed to drive..
We have a 'start' button on our XR4Ti, prolly the only one with such a 'feature'. Our key only unlocks the doors (not the rear hatch) and unlocks the column, other than that it's useless, talk about security!
plance1 wrote: It's a trendy stupid gimmick that was old 5 years ago.
I think I agree with that. If memory serves,when I was a wee lad,an uncle had a late '40s Ford or Mercury that had the starter switch under the accelerator pedal. He turned the car on with a key in the dash but to start the car he had to press on the gas pedal.
ddavidv wrote: They are stupid. I get in and out of all kinds of cars on a daily basis and it's a PITA trying to figure out how to just fire up the dashboard to get the mileage reading on new cars. More gimmickry we don't need. Give me a key any day.
+1
Hopefully within a few years we can have this as a standard feature:
Even better, have "ENGAGE" or "IGNITE" written above it in block letters so starting the minivan is just a bit more empowering.
Run_Away wrote:daytonaer wrote:Really? That's not mentioned as any of the functions in the service manual. I'll have to try that out. Do you know what year/model this was? So you actually take the mechanical portion of the I-Key out of the fob to do this?Run_Away wrote: I work at a Nissan dealership and I hate them, simply because you have to have the brake pedal depressed for it to start the motor. This means getting in the car every time you want to start the engine, something that is a pain in the ass because the hoist doesn't leave much room to open the door.I looked at some new nissans on the dealer lot, if you put the key in the door lock cylinder, turn it (don't know what way) and HOLD it in the rotated position for a few seconds it will start the engine. Surprised me when I was trying to unlock the doors.
Don't recall specifically. Perhaps 05 or 06? Really don't know. They were about 14k or so on a used lot, had a bunch. It was the altima's. I thought it would roll down the windows like in the vw commercials but the thing started. Took about 5 minutes to figure out how to shut it off with the key in the door. Maybe it was the valet key? it was a key. I'm not familiar with the product line.
The push button systems may actually help a few people out there but I say that was unintended. It's marketing morons pushing for more crap on a car. They have no idea of the track record of these new electronic gizmos and don't care.
There's no real benefit to most of today's computer controlled gimmickry. Back in the day, when you went to lower your power windows you would push a button, that would make a contact to ground allowing relays to close and amperage to flow and the window would go down. Why is it when you push your window switch now you are telling a computer to make that connection to ground? It didn't save any labor on the part of the consumer, it just complicated the system.
DrBoost wrote: The push button systems may actually help a few people out there but I say that was unintended. It's marketing morons pushing for more crap on a car. They have no idea of the track record of these new electronic gizmos and don't care. There's no real benefit to most of today's computer controlled gimmickry. Back in the day, when you went to lower your power windows you would push a button, that would make a contact to ground allowing relays to close and amperage to flow and the window would go down. Why is it when you push your window switch now you are telling a computer to make that connection to ground? It didn't save any labor on the part of the consumer, it just complicated the system.
actually you've increased the durability of the system by going electronic. I've worked in a manufacturing plant maintence department. What you described is the change from a machine controlled by relay logic to a machine controlled by a PLC. Relays wear out, PLC's rarely fail. When PLC's fail its a tougher event to replace them, but the failure is very very rare.
Look as someone who has troubleshot issues with equipment designed in the 40's and equipment designed a few years ago, give me the electronics anyday. Sure it's easier to diagnose the issues with the 1940's stuff, but you're doing it at 10x the frequency of the newer stuff.
As a mechanical engineer, it is really hard for me to say this, but, The more mechanical "stuff" you can remove from a given system; the more reliable and longer lasting it will be. Ask anyone who works in a plant.
Couple of points...
First, people ARE paying for these features. Why, I'm not sure, but you all complain about the extra complexity- well, people are buying it. To the point where some of this stuff will become standard. Not sure if push button will make it, but a lot of "stuff" becomes required as people enjoy using it.
Second- most of you are just bitching with your mouths, and not with your money. Why? Very, very few on this board buy new cars. If you don't buy new, then why should any OEM listen to you? They shouldn't. Everytime a complaint about new cars come up, I always laugh a little about it, since most of you are complaining about used cars, not new ones. While I understand your frustration of not being able to get simple cars, most of you should realize that your opinion really doesn't matter. Rant all you want- just don't expect anything to change.
Just sayin.
Eric
Mechanical systems can be serviced, jury-rigged, rebuilt, etc. Computer chips and curcuit boards, not so much. This is why todays cars will not survive the way cars of the past have. Where will you find a body control module for a 2004 M5 in 2032? Who would know how to program it? Have the proper computer to do it? You won't. Need a carb part for a '67 Porsche? May not be able to find one, but a machineist can make one. (of course this assumes there are still machineists around...)
alfadriver wrote: Couple of points... First, people ARE paying for these features. Why, I'm not sure, but you all complain about the extra complexity- well, people are buying it. To the point where some of this stuff will become standard. Not sure if push button will make it, but a lot of "stuff" becomes required as people enjoy using it. Second- most of you are just bitching with your mouths, and not with your money. Why? Very, very few on this board buy new cars. If you don't buy new, then why should any OEM listen to you? They shouldn't. Everytime a complaint about new cars come up, I always laugh a little about it, since most of you are complaining about used cars, not new ones. While I understand your frustration of not being able to get simple cars, most of you should realize that your opinion really doesn't matter. Rant all you want- just don't expect anything to change. Just sayin. Eric
We ARE speaking with our wallets, by not purchaseing these overly complex cars. However, since we are such a small portion of the market, it has little effect. If a manufacturer were to produce a simple, light weight , rear drive coupe / convertible, it would sell well to this group. But again we're a small group so its not a lot of units to sell.
Run_Away wrote: I work at a Nissan dealership and I hate them, simply because you have to have the brake pedal depressed for it to start the motor. This means getting in the car every time you want to start the engine, something that is a pain in the ass because the hoist doesn't leave much room to open the door.
So....you hate cars with clutch pedals as well?
And @Raze: Love the arcade-button. Reminds me of a guy that came to some local autoX events. Sticker on his trunk said "This ain't no video game".
Ignorant, you are talking about apples and oranges here PLC's are different from the systems in cars. I'm not pretending to be an engineer here but "just a wrench", i.e. just the guy that has to repair stuff that was designed or engineered poorly.
Case in point: years ago when body control modules were very new. I get a Chrysler product that has funky issues with the power door locks. Can't remember exactly what the symptoms where now. I check both switches, they check out fine. Check the relay, it's fine. "wiggle test" the wires, alls well. Ok, so now I have to decide, is there a wire issue in here that just isn't playing up right now or is it a computer? If the computer wasn't in the loop my diagnosis would be much easier. Let's see, fuses can be conclusively checked (visual and DVOM checks), switches, the relay and the actuators can be checked. Computers are simply not easy to conclusively check and aren't as reliable as you'd like to think. Just ask any tech here or buy a VW/Audi. Back to my story. I check everything I can and conclude that it must be the body control module. Parts and labor? the better part of $1,000!!! Now, I'm real uneasy making a $1,000 assumption with the customers money (I'd have no problem popping a relay in on the customers dime though, better yet, I'd put in a known good one from my box, gratas). So I call the hotline just to make sure, after all, this is $1,000 of the customers money. They say "must be the BCM". Not real reassuring.
Now, we were right, it was the BCM but do you see my points here? First of all, it cost the customer $1,000 to fix her door locks because there was a computer in the loop doing nothing but making a redundant connection for you. Except the computer, the most expensive component in that system would cost maybe 1/10th that price.
Every time I voice my opinion about the unnecessary complexity of today's cars I get lambasted by engineers and others, but it is what it is. If you talk to the folks who repair them or who own the ones old enough to be repaired they'd rather have a simpler mechanical system or less computerized system.
Gearheadotaku wrote: We ARE speaking with our wallets, by not purchaseing these overly complex cars. However, since we are such a small portion of the market, it has little effect. If a manufacturer were to produce a simple, light weight , rear drive coupe / convertible, it would sell well to this group. But again we're a small group so its not a lot of units to sell.
We do! But we still buy way more used Miatas than new Miatas. We're all just a bunch of cheapskates, and I'm OK with that.
Gearheadotaku wrote: We ARE speaking with our wallets, by not purchaseing these overly complex cars. However, since we are such a small portion of the market, it has little effect. If a manufacturer were to produce a simple, light weight , rear drive coupe / convertible, it would sell well to this group. But again we're a small group so its not a lot of units to sell.
You think you are. But you are not.
How many people here bought their Miata brand new in the last 5 years? I'd guess very, very few. Especially compared to who bought used Miatas in the last year.
Basically, you can look at it in two ways- either you are too small to matter, or nobody buys new cars. Either way, it doesn't matter- no OEM in their right mind would take this board's opinion and run with it, when many orders of magnitude more buyers ARE paying for it.
Still, rant all you want- just don't expect anything from it, when your neighbors are buying cars with those exact features you dispise so much.
Eric
Honestly I like the push button start on my S2000. I still have keys to shut the car off if my throttle cable gives me "unintended acceleration" 
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