In reply to LanEvo :
Good explanation. I have no experience with modern good handling cars, at least not on the race track.
In reply to LanEvo :
Good explanation. I have no experience with modern good handling cars, at least not on the race track.
In reply to frenchyd :
Lol. Not my words. I’m just repeating what I’ve heard from Ross.
Peter makes another good point for people with modern cars, which tend to handle well enough that they behave like power-limited momentum cars. Consider the total distance you’re covering. Sure, the traditional driving line might give you the widest possible arc through a corner...but you might not need such a big arc. In some cases, it may actually be faster to hug the inside (to some degree), which allows you to drive a shorter distance. If your car has enough grip to take a tighter line without scrubbing, then it might be faster to do so.
In reply to LanEvo :
Good point. The formula Ford line. In the 1970’s /80’s Corvettes/ Cobra’s and Formula Fords had about the same lap times. But how they got it was wildly different.
The nice thing is if you start out driving underpowered cars you are forced to learn to drive that way. Then if you switch to the big thundrerboomers you have a technique most in that group don’t have.
To expand on trail braking since I nag nag nag about learning this straight away and not doing the do all your braking in a straight line then having to unlearn this and relearn trail braking.
There is multiple things going on here:
Lets say maximum braking compresses the front suspension 2", turning the wheel will then further compress the suspension 1", this will likely overload the tire, so as you turn the wheel you need to come off the brakes at the same rate you wind on steering. The net result is the ride height stays level, the increasing load from the steering is offset by the decreasing load from trailing off the brake.
We are trying to bend the tires into a corner; take a stick and bend it quickly, it won't bend for before it snaps. Now pry on a stick slowly and it will bend an amazing amount before it snaps. Tires will snap / break loose if you don't pry them slowly, trail braking aids this.
How do you wheelie a motorcycle? Simple you compress the forks, then quickly wind on the throttle, when you bury the nose of the car then abruptly come off the brakes and stab the throttle you've effectively done the same. If the front tires aren't touching the ground the car won't steer. Trail braking stops you from lofting the front tires.
Trail braking also keeps the weight on the front tires allowing for higher corner entry speeds, we're not using the brakes to slow the car but to give us a wider contact patch.
Due to the rear wheels having a smaller contact patch, the back of the car will slowly wheel around the front; so not only do you get the maximum from all four tires at once, you can also run a tighter line meaning the car will travel less ground in most corners.
The final benefit is because this wheels the back end around the front, at some point, you have to pick up the throttle to get the load onto the back wheels unless you want to over rotate and or snap spin the car. This usaully results in picking up the throttle fairly early in a corner. You'll also be able to unwind the wheel sooner and start accerlating sooner as well.
As for trailing throttle and throttle steering it's no different than trailing braking; you're simply managing the balance on the car. I see or ride with people who in big double apex sweepers try to actually wind on more steering to get the car back into the 2nd apex. A modern car will do this but if you already using maximum traction for cornering the front tires are going to break traction and the car won't turn until the tires have scrubbed off enough speed. Either that or the driver tricks themselves into cornering slower so that when they wind on more steering mid corner the car will turn. The much faster and easier way to do this is to momentarily come off the throttle. You don't need to lift much, think 1-2mm (lift up your big toe), just long enough for the backend to gently rotate and point the car into the 2nd apex. You can practice in the road at normal speeds; if you are in a sweeper that tightens up (highway interchange) lifting off the throttle will cause the car to tighten it's line. If the corner opens up the a little more throttle will make the car widen it's line. This is much faster, safer and smoother then constant steering corrections.
While none of the above is anything new and seems obvious, I'm amazed at the number of people who continue to do the exact opposite. I still see a lot off driver induced understeer and low corner speeds.
@LanEvo while I'm extremely aggressive (by virtue of my motorcycle racing) I'm also keenly aware of the fact that I have a very lovely wife and a son to think about. I saw several racers lose their lives back in my motorcycle racing days so low percentage moves are off the table. As scary as it may seem when I road raced motorcycles I had no health insurance whatsoever nor could I afford to crash the bike, so I had to be really heads up about risk management.
Just out of curiosity where the accidents road vehicle crashes? A racer friend who is head driving instructor at Spring Mtn Motorsports Ranch had his nastiest crash on the road; a guy changed lanes into the side off his car sending him into a signal pole at 45mph, said pole slice into the car nearly down to the firewall. Like many racers I find people on public road far more terrifying than being on track.
There is a time for trailing throttle, trailing brake. And a time to switch tactics.
Watch Kimi in Formula one. He reverts back to his ice racing / rally days when passing is conducted or set up in a tight corner.
If you watch carefully he turns in sharply to loosen the back end and then drifts the car to complete the pass while blocking his opponent.
To LanEvo, Tom1200 and frenchyd thanks for the wonderful xmas present 
Klayfish said:frenchyd said:In reply to Klayfish :
Well yes and no! (About the first corner) I’ve qualified slightly slower than a similar car and a good start or smart placement going into the corner can put me ahead of the guy and the difference between us cant be overcome after that.
On the other hand you are absolutely right that you can blow it by acting without thinking.
My favorite example is in 1986 during the Bahama Vintage week. Steve Kline anticipated the start better than Sir Stirling Moss did and put himself in front of Moss going into the first corner. Now Sir Stirling Moss is a world class driver and the Aston Martin he drove was capable of beating Steve’s Echidna but the difference between the two cars couldn’t be overcome.
Learning from that lesson in the big final race Sir Stirling Moss jumped over and blocked Steve Kline which opened a hole up and put me in second place where I finished.
You're right, but I'm looking at it from the perspective of endurance road racing (LeMons), which is what I do. In a race that lasts 15 hours over two days, and has 120 cars on the race track at the drop of the green flag, you're not going to win the race in turn 1 of lap 1, but you can ruin the entire weekend. I know I'll never be the fastest guy on the track, but my mindset is that I'm there for fun first, competition second. I want to win, and I drive the car hard, but not at the expense of ruining the car for myself and my teammates, or getting hurt. So I'll be the one to back off if we're about to go 3 wide into a turn, or won't stick my nose in a spot where I'm not completely sure the other driver knows I'm there and will give me the room. Not worth the risk.
Well said. What I’ve heard about that sort of racing has me convinced it’s not for me. As a kid I raced semi Professionally. Then briefly following Vietnam I tried my hand at racing to see if some of the excitement of flying off a carrier and into combat could be replaced. ( it can’t) so I gingerly tried Vintage racing.
What I found was similarly inclined people who wanted the thrill of racing without the damage and subsequent expense.
Now however Vintage racing is business. As a results costs are high enough that only the affluent attend. Maybe that’s as it should be. The right crowd and no crowding.
Tom1200 said:To expand on trail braking since I nag nag nag about learning this straight away and not doing the do all your braking in a straight line then having to unlearn this and relearn trail braking.
There is multiple things going on here:
Lets say maximum braking compresses the front suspension 2", turning the wheel will then further compress the suspension 1", this will likely overload the tire, so as you turn the wheel you need to come off the brakes at the same rate you wind on steering. The net result is the ride height stays level, the increasing load from the steering is offset by the decreasing load from trailing off the brake.
We are trying to bend the tires into a corner; take a stick and bend it quickly, it won't bend for before it snaps. Now pry on a stick slowly and it will bend an amazing amount before it snaps. Tires will snap / break loose if you don't pry them slowly, trail braking aids this.
How do you wheelie a motorcycle? Simple you compress the forks, then quickly wind on the throttle, when you bury the nose of the car then abruptly come off the brakes and stab the throttle you've effectively done the same. If the front tires aren't touching the ground the car won't steer. Trail braking stops you from lofting the front tires.
Trail braking also keeps the weight on the front tires allowing for higher corner entry speeds, we're not using the brakes to slow the car but to give us a wider contact patch.
Due to the rear wheels having a smaller contact patch, the back of the car will slowly wheel around the front; so not only do you get the maximum from all four tires at once, you can also run a tighter line meaning the car will travel less ground in most corners.
The final benefit is because this wheels the back end around the front, at some point, you have to pick up the throttle to get the load onto the back wheels unless you want to over rotate and or snap spin the car. This usaully results in picking up the throttle fairly early in a corner. You'll also be able to unwind the wheel sooner and start accerlating sooner as well.
As for trailing throttle and throttle steering it's no different than trailing braking; you're simply managing the balance on the car. I see or ride with people who in big double apex sweepers try to actually wind on more steering to get the car back into the 2nd apex. A modern car will do this but if you already using maximum traction for cornering the front tires are going to break traction and the car won't turn until the tires have scrubbed off enough speed. Either that or the driver tricks themselves into cornering slower so that when they wind on more steering mid corner the car will turn. The much faster and easier way to do this is to momentarily come off the throttle. You don't need to lift much, think 1-2mm (lift up your big toe), just long enough for the backend to gently rotate and point the car into the 2nd apex. You can practice in the road at normal speeds; if you are in a sweeper that tightens up (highway interchange) lifting off the throttle will cause the car to tighten it's line. If the corner opens up the a little more throttle will make the car widen it's line. This is much faster, safer and smoother then constant steering corrections.
While none of the above is anything new and seems obvious, I'm amazed at the number of people who continue to do the exact opposite. I still see a lot off driver induced understeer and low corner speeds.
@LanEvo while I'm extremely aggressive (by virtue of my motorcycle racing) I'm also keenly aware of the fact that I have a very lovely wife and a son to think about. I saw several racers lose their lives back in my motorcycle racing days so low percentage moves are off the table. As scary as it may seem when I road raced motorcycles I had no health insurance whatsoever nor could I afford to crash the bike, so I had to be really heads up about risk management.
Just out of curiosity where the accidents road vehicle crashes? A racer friend who is head driving instructor at Spring Mtn Motorsports Ranch had his nastiest crash on the road; a guy changed lanes into the side off his car sending him into a signal pole at 45mph, said pole slice into the car nearly down to the firewall. Like many racers I find people on public road far more terrifying than being on track.
Some cars are so brutal by their very nature that the only way to drive them is like dealing with a bucking horse. You simply must dominate them. Use their strength to your purpose.
My Black Jack was very much like that. Tiny wheelbase, narrow track, big horsepower, and torque.
Drive it around a corner and it was slow. Throw it around that corner and it was shockingly quick. Remarkably tossing it felt like things were slowing down. You could dance on the throttle and steer the whole car without turning the wheel. It’s closest to sprint car driving in that regard.
Sometimes if you are having a hard time getting by, follow for a lap and you may find a spot where you are quicker.
Worked for me a couple times and it was on the last lap.
In reply to iceracer : Good point but don’t be lulled into just following, Your opponent may be dealing with his own issues, brakes, overheating, tires going off, etc So you need to keep the pressure on without giving away your intentions.
Don’t count on your favorite spot or move to work either. He may know about that and be ready for it but not ready earlier or later.
i suppose at sometime we we should talk about blocking. Or being in the best spot to prevent a pass.
There are real rules. Plus you cannot just simply block
@Frenchyd I've driven a number of cars that need to be chucked in; the Datsun 1200 is a bit that way, with its lovely sophisticated leaf spring rear suspension. I also have the reputation of being Mr oversteer with the car. I once drove a hill climb jeep (as in Pikes Peak) at one of our rallycross events (mile long course on dry lake bed). It had 700hp, super stiff suspension and a locked rear diff. The fastes way was to give the brakes a quick hard squeeze, chuck it in and then balance it on the throttle. The Sprint car comparison is spot on.
In reply to Tom1200 :
The Black Jack had leaf rear suspension. And a locked rear end.
So I completely understand what you are saying. Too bad a lot of these kids don’t know the joy of driving like that.
In reply to frenchyd :
I raced a Chevy s10 with a locked rear end - obviously with leaf springs too. It handled way better than it had any right to. Driving in the paddock around turns wasn’t fun though! Lots of tire hop.
Klayfish said:frenchyd said:In reply to Klayfish :
Well yes and no! (About the first corner) I’ve qualified slightly slower than a similar car and a good start or smart placement going into the corner can put me ahead of the guy and the difference between us cant be overcome after that.
On the other hand you are absolutely right that you can blow it by acting without thinking.
My favorite example is in 1986 during the Bahama Vintage week. Steve Kline anticipated the start better than Sir Stirling Moss did and put himself in front of Moss going into the first corner. Now Sir Stirling Moss is a world class driver and the Aston Martin he drove was capable of beating Steve’s Echidna but the difference between the two cars couldn’t be overcome.
Learning from that lesson in the big final race Sir Stirling Moss jumped over and blocked Steve Kline which opened a hole up and put me in second place where I finished.
You're right, but I'm looking at it from the perspective of endurance road racing (LeMons), which is what I do. In a race that lasts 15 hours over two days, and has 120 cars on the race track at the drop of the green flag, you're not going to win the race in turn 1 of lap 1, but you can ruin the entire weekend. I know I'll never be the fastest guy on the track, but my mindset is that I'm there for fun first, competition second. I want to win, and I drive the car hard, but not at the expense of ruining the car for myself and my teammates, or getting hurt. So I'll be the one to back off if we're about to go 3 wide into a turn, or won't stick my nose in a spot where I'm not completely sure the other driver knows I'm there and will give me the room. Not worth the risk.
Good point, different sort of racing. Patience is normally rewarded in endurance racing where a typical SCCA sprint race is 20-30 minutes and most positions are set in the first few laps.
I suspect with endurance racing most passing is either done on the straights or in the pits. The momentary opening of an opportunity would be risky given the massive difference in driving skill and experience in endurance racing.
frenchyd said:Klayfish said:frenchyd said:In reply to Klayfish :
Well yes and no! (About the first corner) I’ve qualified slightly slower than a similar car and a good start or smart placement going into the corner can put me ahead of the guy and the difference between us cant be overcome after that.
On the other hand you are absolutely right that you can blow it by acting without thinking.
My favorite example is in 1986 during the Bahama Vintage week. Steve Kline anticipated the start better than Sir Stirling Moss did and put himself in front of Moss going into the first corner. Now Sir Stirling Moss is a world class driver and the Aston Martin he drove was capable of beating Steve’s Echidna but the difference between the two cars couldn’t be overcome.
Learning from that lesson in the big final race Sir Stirling Moss jumped over and blocked Steve Kline which opened a hole up and put me in second place where I finished.
You're right, but I'm looking at it from the perspective of endurance road racing (LeMons), which is what I do. In a race that lasts 15 hours over two days, and has 120 cars on the race track at the drop of the green flag, you're not going to win the race in turn 1 of lap 1, but you can ruin the entire weekend. I know I'll never be the fastest guy on the track, but my mindset is that I'm there for fun first, competition second. I want to win, and I drive the car hard, but not at the expense of ruining the car for myself and my teammates, or getting hurt. So I'll be the one to back off if we're about to go 3 wide into a turn, or won't stick my nose in a spot where I'm not completely sure the other driver knows I'm there and will give me the room. Not worth the risk.
Good point, different sort of racing. Patience is normally rewarded in endurance racing where a typical SCCA sprint race is 20-30 minutes and most positions are set in the first few laps.
I suspect with endurance racing most passing is either done on the straights or in the pits. The momentary opening of an opportunity would be risky given the massive difference in driving skill and experience in endurance racing.
In champcar, you pass as you get to the car in front of you. Inside, outside, into corner, out of corner...
This assumes that you believe the passing car is aware of the situation. It can get messy if they dont....
And yes, even in an endurance race you need to pretty much go flat out now. We have won and lost at least 3 races by less than 20 seconds after 7 or 8 hours of racing.
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