Both in the 215/65r16 tire size. Dont say snows since the car will be driven 110 miles one way to the Rallycross and I live in the south.
BFG K02
General Grabber AT2
Specs:
K02
103/100S rating with a max load of 1930lbs a tire
Grabber
98T rating with a max load of 1654lbs a tire
The difference for 6 tires is $275 total. The BFG's are more expensive.
1. What class are you running in?
2. What kind of surface does the venue have?
1. SR
2. Dirt/gravel here is an image of the surface
I would run autocross tires.
it is a very loose surface.
On most rallycross cars i'd say "go with snows anyhow" regardless of your location and distance, simply for the substantial difference in rotational mass (and cost).....but a CV has sufficient mass and power that its not gonna have any issue turning the heavy A/Ts in the way a smaller/less powerful car would.
As to your choices in the A/T realm, I've only seen one competitive car ever run on A/Ts - one of our local e30s that ran one season on the BFGs. He did fairly well, but was in mod class and the tires probably held him back from winning more. But the tires held up well to our gravel and hardpack surface and they still use the same tires to transit to events (but use rally tires once there). I'd venture to say it won't be a significant competitive difference between the two choices above, so if it was me I'd just get the less expensive set and go with it (and buy a 5th one for a spare in case of flat/debead/broken wheel or whatever).
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*that said* (and this is just food for thought) you could always just drive to the event on whatever street tires you have, and have a full set of very inexpensive snows that would likely make you more competitive than the BFGs (though they would definitely wear faster on a heavy/powerful car). I can fit four wheels/tires in an e30 trunk, so I doubt you'd have a space issue doing that. Just a thought, and it would be a magnitude less expensive than A/Ts for similar or better traction in rallycross conditions. Probably get two full sets of alitmax arctics or winterforces for the price of one set of A/Ts.,,,,,,
But yeah, just get the cheaper of the two A/Ts, since there won't be an appreciable difference.
MrChaos said:Both in the 215/65r16 tire size. Dont say snows since the car will be driven 110 miles one way to the Rallycross and I live in the south.
So what? Snows can handle that, especially cheapo junk snows like Mastercrafts and Coopers that don't have the mega-gummy compounds like Blizzaks, and they will grip way better than truck tires will. Compound makes all the difference. I've tested Mastercraft snow tires to be equal in times to five year old Michelin rally tires, and I've driven on them to and from events. My closest events were 160mi away and it gets in the 90s in the summer here.
ojannen said:I would run autocross tires.
Autocross tires aren't Stock legal though. The rule is that the tire must not have wording to the effect of "For competition use" moulded into the tire.
Otherwise, hell yes. Gummy slicks work incredibly well on dry dirt.
Knurled. said:MrChaos said:Both in the 215/65r16 tire size. Dont say snows since the car will be driven 110 miles one way to the Rallycross and I live in the south.
So what? Snows can handle that, especially cheapo junk snows like Mastercrafts and Coopers that don't have the mega-gummy compounds like Blizzaks, and they will grip way better than truck tires will. Compound makes all the difference. I've tested Mastercraft snow tires to be equal in times to five year old Michelin rally tires, and I've driven on them to and from events. My closest events were 160mi away and it gets in the 90s in the summer here.
I will second the fact that snow tires WILL be faster in pretty much any condition short of major mud, and DO have superior traction on most surfaces to any A/T tire. Plus they are lighter.
If you stated an intent "to win" or to "be as competitive as possible" that's what I'd say.
But .... since you didn't say that, the A/Ts will be fine and will last forever (and look way cooler). So just get the cheaper ones and go have fun.
In reply to irish44j :
hmm the Mastercraft Glacier Grip 2's are only like $75 a tire...... that might be the best option
still have to get non steel wheels though
In reply to irish44j :
They last forever because they are as hard as iron, and grip like iron...
Knurled. said:In reply to irish44j :
They last forever because they are as hard as iron, and grip like iron...
oh, I know....again, depends on priorities ;)
MrChaos said:In reply to irish44j :
hmm the Mastercraft Glacier Grip 2's are only like $75 a tire...... that might be the best option
still have to get non steel wheels though
check General Altimax Arctic and Firestone Winterforce. Those are usually the favorites for stock class, and at least in my 14" size they're like $50 each, especially after the winter just ended ;)
In reply to irish44j :
in the 215/65r16 size they are the same price as the General Grabbers
irish44j said:MrChaos said:In reply to irish44j :
hmm the Mastercraft Glacier Grip 2's are only like $75 a tire...... that might be the best option
still have to get non steel wheels though
check General Altimax Arctic and Firestone Winterforce. Those are usually the favorites for stock class, and at least in my 14" size they're like $50 each, especially after the winter just ended ;)
The Winterforces did not impress me on my Golf, and the Winterforce 2s that I bought as drive-to-events snow tires for the S40 were so bad on the street that they were scary, like even with 40psi in them (in the rear tires!) they flopped all over the place and it felt like my little tire trailer was shoving the car around.
IDK, I have three sets of Altimax Arctics which are pretty soft, but then again my summer tires are star specs so it's all relative. I had "heard" the Winterforces were a bit floppier but no direct experience.
We've done four winter stage rallies on Altimaxes, so they can stand up to the beating. WMWR is 100 times rougher than any rallycross lol. And with debead re-run rules, debeads aren't the worry they used to be.
In reply to irish44j :
I used to drive year round on Arctics, and Gislaved Nordfrost 5s, with 185/70-14s on a fairly heavy car. The Winterforce 2s in a lower profile on a lighter car had almost negative sidewall stiffness in comparison.
I can't stress enough how much they suck, not just as a competition tire but as a tire in general. I guess they hold air pressure okay, but beyond that, they're rather crappy.
One guy in our local region who is usually right up in the pointy end of the field runs a Forrester with the sway bars pulled, marshmallows for springs and either General AT2s or some kind of replica Super Swamper depending on the surface. In anything short of a very snowy event, that thing is very competitive.
Out of the 2 choices in the OP, I'd get the AT2s. They look like they should have a little better lateral bite.
For another choice, if cold weather isn't an issue, I'd be tempted to try something in a more summer-y compound and apply some use of a tire groover.
Echoing the sentiments already expressed, there's no such thing as a good AT tire for rallycross use, if you're wanting to be even vaguely competitive. Given the high gravel content of your venue, I think Knurled's Mastercraft recommendation is a great idea. We had a set of these on the rental rallycross chariot and I was impressed with the grip they offered on our gravel venue.
If you haven't seen this article I put together, there's some additional suggestions for "fine tuning" when you select your tire size.
Is the goofy size to fit the goofy tire? If concerned about overheating a snow tire (though you won't) driving to and from events, you really need to look at the Nokian all weather options (WRG line). A 65 series tire is going to have to steering response of a frontend loader. If you wear a size 11 shoe and you're out shoe shopping and there's a pair that you really like, but the largest size they have in is a 9, would you still purchase them? (I'd hope not) because you need something that works for you and what you're doing, it needs to be functional and that's what matters more than look or style.
In reply to captdownshift :
Factory size is 225 60r16 or 235 55r17. The size is to actually get tire options.
Both of those stock sizes (as well as 235/60R16) give at least one option for cheap summer tires. If you're on a surface where a soft, sticky compound helps but you want something more heat tolerant and less mushy than a snow tire, I'd go for the cheap summers and groove the tread as needed option. It's a bit of work, but will likely work out better performance-wise.
In reply to MrChaos :
I'd go to a 215/55R16 and get Nokian WRG4s (they're also available in a 215/60R16 but you gain nothing from the added sidewall for the application use)
captdownshift said:In reply to MrChaos :
I'd go to a 215/55R16 and get Nokian WRG4s (they're also available in a 215/60R16 but you gain nothing from the added sidewall for the application use)
215/55R16 is a bad choice, IMO. It's almost 1.5 inches shorter than the smallest stock tire, so there's a ground clearance sacrifice plus the issue of the speedo being way off for the drive to the event. A 215/65 doesn't have an insane amount of sidewall anyway (barely more than the stock 225/60 option). For rallycross, having lots of sidewall is not a bad thing. It makes things more forgiving and can make it a little harder to de-bead a tire. And having run rallycrosses with a heavier vehicle on 235/70R16s, it's not an issue for steering response in that situation either.
I don't know your rear end ratio nor the gearing in your trans to do any worthwhile math, but you could also consider a 205/65R16 snow tire for the rallycross use. This size is 0.2" short than the factory 225 size. Narrower is almost always better on loose material, as it is less likely to float on top.
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