Which Toyobaru is best Toyobaru?

Doing research and about to try and switch things up in the garage (Selling Golf R, and Miata, buying something... likely one of the twins). Have about 20k budget to work with, so nothing brand new but looking fairly new. New car will be the daily driver as well as autocross/track day car.

So far research has lead me to:
-Will likely want 2015+
-BRZ has better interior
-FRS is cheaper/more plentiful
-SSC autocross is only up to 2016 model, couldn't do torque dip fixes (header+tune)
-2017+ has more features (sensors, Brembos)
-Full STX build is likely out of reach to start

Are there any other recommendations from folks about various years, popularity of SSC, competitiveness of a mild STX build, long term reliability (aka should I be looking at newer cars)? I'm competitive but know I need to tune the nut behind the wheel rather than the car, so even if I get a 2017+ and add SSC parts (even though it's not SSC legal), it would likely make a good street/track combo. Thanks in advance.

Anything past the three year mark should do the job. Buy based on condition of the individual car because not much has changed.

Still love mine. Wish it had a real engine.

Pete

Do you track or autocross yours? Good to know on changes, and yeah. Unless it's got the mods that I would do, I'll look for a particularly stock one. 
I've accepted that the engine is what it is, but I'm also not a power kind of guy (even though it is fun). If I fit, I'd be tracking my NB miata so even less power... Likely would eventually do the header/tune to fix the torque dip, Supercharger if I really got hungry wayyy down the line.  

NOHOME said:

Anything past the three year mark should do the job. Buy based on condition of the individual car because not much has changed.

Still love mine. Wish it had a real engine.

 

Pete

A bit OT, but has a two-marque collaboration ever realized its true potential? If Subaru had made this thing on their own, it would probably be funny-looking but would also have a giant turbo. If Toyota had, it would probably... well, exhibit whatever good qualities make people buy Toyotas.

I don't know... seems like a decent performer to me, but I'd like it a lot better if the redline were a full 8,000 RPM instead of 7,500. Little things like that seem to get lost in a corporate collaboration.

ine is the daily driver-toaster.

Reason I like the car is because it is very good at that job. The chassis does not need to be on a racetrack to prove its mettle. light weight and a stiff nimlbe chassis  with good feedback can be enjoyed all the time.

I dunno because I dont track mine, but I have a feeling that the twins are at their best when left as they left the factory. 

Pete

2017+ BRZ is the one you want. 

Couple things you are missing: 

1. 2017+ manual cars have the shorter 4.3 final drive ratio. This goes a long way to assisting the power deficit 

2. 2017+ cars have the ability to turn off ALL TCS and VCS by simplying pressing down a button. The earlier cars need to do the "pedal dance" everytime they wish to go on track/autox

3. The 2017+ intake manifold is the better manifold to have, but it's benefits are limited 

4. The 2014+ cars don't have the valve spring recall. A large amount of owners had their engines fail post-recall still. 

5. The BRZ's enjoy better resale value than the Scion FRS's. The Toyota 86 is about the same as the BRZ

6. The newest infotainment is lightyears ahead of the older cars

Feel free to ask any questions. I feel like I've got a decent feel for the platform at this point. 

In reply to goingnowherefast :

I was wondering if '17 was when the lower ratio diff went in. Do you track or autocross yours? The only thing stopping me from looking hard at the '17+ models is that they aren't in SSC for autocross. I feel like I should build what I want regardless, but value-wise SSC prep gets the alignment adjustability and a bit of ride height drop without going to coilovers. I would consider getting a 2017+ and putting SSC parts on it (and not care about classing. My driving isn't near good enough to be at the pointy end of either class regardless of car prep).

The 4:10s have this engine churning at highway speeds. If you live in an area where you see speeds above 80-85mph, its turning. 4:30s would be even worse. 

In reply to Appleseed :

Not any worse than a Miata. On a regular commute I don't see highway.

Appleseed said:

The 4:10s have this engine churning at highway speeds. If you live in an area where you see speeds above 80-85mph, its turning. 4:30s would be even worse. 

It's a small rev happy engine, let it sing.

I spent almost 100k turning 4k at 75 because barely any overdrive + 4.11 + short 14" tires.  With a larger engine that accelerated slowly and was dead over 5000.  The BRZ looks positively tall-geared in comparison!

I also used to have a car that was geared so tall that 5th was useless.  Sure it could do 60mph at only 2800, but it didn't have much more power than it took to maintain 60.  So I just never shifted past 4th.

goingnowherefast said:

2. 2017+ cars have the ability to turn off ALL TCS and VCS by simplying pressing down a button. The earlier cars need to do the "pedal dance" everytime they wish to go on track/autox

What does the pedal dance do that turning off everything by holding down the button doesn't do?  On my 2015 FR-S holding down the button for three seconds seems to turn off everything.  It certainly allowed me to spin.

parker said:

goingnowherefast said:

2. 2017+ cars have the ability to turn off ALL TCS and VCS by simplying pressing down a button. The earlier cars need to do the "pedal dance" everytime they wish to go on track/autox

What does the pedal dance do that turning off everything by holding down the button doesn't do?  On my 2015 FR-S holding down the button for three seconds seems to turn off everything.  It certainly allowed me to spin.

It's not *quite* all the way off when you just use the button. from a few searches, this is what the pedal dance does: 

A little late. What it does in really simple words:

• turns off traction control (TC)

• turns off stability control (VCS)

• turns off electronic brake distribution (EDB)

• it does not turn off ABS.

From another source: 

Holding TC turns almost everything off. There is still an LSD action controlled through the braking system, ABS, and some extreme-case traction control.

The pedal dance is not THAT complicated, does work, and turns everything except ABS off.

Seems like the electronic brake distribution, or if things go REALLY wrong, it will kick in. Unless you pedal dance. I'm no expert, just what a couple min of google fu told me.

Just out of curiosity but what are auto and manual equipped Frisebees spinning at 75 on the highway rpm wise? I've never owned one..

TXratti said:

parker said:

goingnowherefast said:

2. 2017+ cars have the ability to turn off ALL TCS and VCS by simplying pressing down a button. The earlier cars need to do the "pedal dance" everytime they wish to go on track/autox

What does the pedal dance do that turning off everything by holding down the button doesn't do?  On my 2015 FR-S holding down the button for three seconds seems to turn off everything.  It certainly allowed me to spin.

It's not *quite* all the way off when you just use the button. from a few searches, this is what the pedal dance does: 

A little late. What it does in really simple words:

• turns off traction control (TC)

• turns off stability control (VCS)

• turns off electronic brake distribution (EDB)

• it does not turn off ABS.

From another source: 

Holding TC turns almost everything off. There is still an LSD action controlled through the braking system, ABS, and some extreme-case traction control.

The pedal dance is not THAT complicated, does work, and turns everything except ABS off.

Seems like the electronic brake distribution, or if things go REALLY wrong, it will kick in. Unless you pedal dance. I'm no expert, just what a couple min of google fu told me.

I have a 2015 and just holding the button down turns off everything except ABS as far as I can tell.  There is certainly no TC or stability control intervention.

In reply to parker :

*shrugs* Like I said, no expert. https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71590

dxman92 said:

Just out of curiosity but what are auto and manual equipped Frisebees spinning at 75 on the highway rpm wise? I've never owned one..

A quick search found a review whining that the trans was geared so short that 6th gear was 22mph per 1000rpm.

That is 2727rpm at 60, or pretty tall for a rev happy 2 liter naturally aspirated engine.  80mph is 3636mph.

Assuming that it takes 35hp to shove the car through the air at 80, that means the engine must be producing 50 ft-lb of torque.  According to Tomei, torque at that RPM is roughly 185nm if I read it right, which is 136ft-lb, at WOT.  So the engine is loaded pretty decently heavily for a sustained cruise, which is not bad for fuel economy but is not very sporty feeling.

that Subaru I used to own with its useless 5th gear, was geared SHORTER than that.

In reply to dxman92 :

If I recall correctly, mine sits about 3,200rpm at 75mph in 6th gear.

This reminded me of:  

b13990 said:

I don't know... seems like a decent performer to me, but I'd like it a lot better if the redline were a full 8,000 RPM instead of 7,500. Little things like that seem to get lost in a corporate collaboration.

But the current engine falls off after 7k...

I don't think there was much corporate collaboration, it was a Subaru project where Toyota contributed some direct injection tech and cash. I'm not a fan of the engine. I think it would have been better with a higher reving varient of say the toyota 2.5L I4, or 2.0L turbo.

In reply to TXratti :

I know you don't live far from me and have probably seen my roommate's Grey SSC FRS at the Texas region SCCA events. 

I would suggest talking to him about all the research he did before he bought his since he was the most recent of the Texas Region SCCA Twin guys to get his. There are 4 twins run here in DFW in Autox and Time Trials with SCCA ranging across all the different years and they all get driven hard. So these guys can give you good advice and they're all local to you. 

In reply to spacecadet :

Yes! Likely.  I'm in touch with a couple people, sent you a PM.

TXratti said:

In reply to goingnowherefast :

I was wondering if '17 was when the lower ratio diff went in. Do you track or autocross yours? The only thing stopping me from looking hard at the '17+ models is that they aren't in SSC for autocross. I feel like I should build what I want regardless, but value-wise SSC prep gets the alignment adjustability and a bit of ride height drop without going to coilovers. I would consider getting a 2017+ and putting SSC parts on it (and not care about classing. My driving isn't near good enough to be at the pointy end of either class regardless of car prep).

Yes to both. Admittedly, I do way more track stuff than autocross. Personally, I think an STX style setup is the sweet spot for these cars. Mine is prepped for SCCA TT T4 which is basically coilovers, camber plates, pads/rotors, all bolt ons, tuned, 17x9.5 w/ 255/40/17 A052 and those mods dropped ~8 seconds off a ~1:20 second track (Waterford hills). I also have flex fuel, which enjoys another 20+ HP gain but I can't run that during competition. They are great cars, and I would highly recommend them. Honestly, I like it more than my AP2 S2000 and my 250 whp Miata. If you were local I'd say you should take it for a good rip!

dxman92 said:

Just out of curiosity but what are auto and manual equipped Frisebees spinning at 75 on the highway rpm wise? I've never owned one.

Here's the numbers @ 75 mph with the OEM tires with the manual: 

4.1: ~3230 rpm

4.3: ~3380 rpm

Personally, a difference of 150 rpms should be basically unnoticeable in both NVH and realistic fuel economy. At the end of the day, this is a sports car with terrible NVH and medicore fuel economy. There's better cars out there if those two aspects are of supreme importance. I still achieve nearly 30 MPG highway on full E85.  

Here's the numbers @ 75 mph with the OEM tires with the automatic: 

Stop. Don't buy an automatic GT86 :)

parker said:

I have a 2015 and just holding the button down turns off everything except ABS as far as I can tell.  There is certainly no TC or stability control intervention.

Holding the button leaves electronic brake force distribution on. So there's definitaly intervention that will occur if you do a lot of trail braking for instance. Source: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25494

There was a recent article in GRM about the gear ratio difference when comparing SSC prepped cars. I believe the findings were pretty much course dependent in regards to one or the other for autocross. I mean if you have to shift to 3rd instead of keeping it in 2nd for the straights, sometimes it's just better to have the 4.10 ratio.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/ssc-battle-2016-vs-2017-scion-fr-s-compared/

Personally I would build to STX spec. I have been waffling about swapping some illegal parts over to drop down a peg myself. It's where these cars shine the most at this point unless you want to jump to DSP or CSP dependent upon level of prep choice. To get to STX prep isn't crazy expensive either.

performance alignment

17x9s with the latest hot sticky tire

coilovers

cas/cam plates

Whitline rear control arms with oem spec or similar bushings

front sway bar

catless front header of choice depending on budget

ECUTEK or OFT tune

brake pads

If you are feeling froggy you could get some AP Racing Sprint BBK to shed some weight up front. Another option is a 1.5 way mechanical LSD, but I think you could trophy nationals without it.

Stock exhaust from the front pipe back isn't a choke point. Buying anything else just makes more noise, and drops SOME weight. I can't imagine that will keep you from winning though as it's all over the rear axle or low on the chassis. Same goes for intake. Buy a drop in filter if you feel so inclined, but even that won't net you much power.

Driving a stock 86 reminds me of driving a stock Miata -- it's a good platform that could be great with more power and better suspension.  Wheels/tires, suspension, forced induction, and exhaust options are widely available, but at price.  When checking out used 86s I can't help mentally adding $10K to the advertised price tag to cover the mods I'd want to do.

If automatics are so bad, then how easy/expensive is it to change the manual trans on a regular basis because crashing synchros is preferable to trying to push a clutch down?

edit - Yeah I'm salty over the idea that you aren't allowed to be an auto enthusiast unless you have a full range of motion over all four limbs