Love the killer B's. Still haven't forgiven my dad - he had an invitation to test drive/buy a road version of the RS200 in Scotland with Jackie Stewart as his coach. They were selling for about 70k at the time. He prefers a nice floaty lincoln 
Love the killer B's. Still haven't forgiven my dad - he had an invitation to test drive/buy a road version of the RS200 in Scotland with Jackie Stewart as his coach. They were selling for about 70k at the time. He prefers a nice floaty lincoln
I've always wondered how the 288 GTO would have done in Group B... probably better we never got to find out.
Vracer111 wrote: I've always wondered how the 288 GTO would have done in Group B... probably better we never got to find out.
Road racing? Who knows?
Stage rally? It would have sucked, probably. The specs made it look like an 037 with more power. More power isn't what the 037 needed. Lancia gave the 037 more power and added all wheel drive at the same time, then stuffed a carbon-kevlar skin over it to make it look like a Delta.
The rear drive cars that did great in Group B mostly did so when Audi was the only AWD car to deal with, and also on very tough rallies like Acropolis or the African rallies, where the simple Toyota Celicas ruled. It's no surprise that the Celicas were more or less Toyota cribbing the Group 4 Escort and using their own engine. (If they used a 4AG based engine instead of the T-based engine, I think some heads would have exploded)
I'm a nerd and I like group B.
Ok, here is my proposal for an exciting to watch top shelf rally class.
These are cars that should be fast and slide a lot, and have homogolation cars produced for consumption by the public. Homogolation should be a minimum of 2000 units (world wide). The vehicle can be a car, SUV or CUV, must seat a minimum of 4. Silhouette of the race car must exactly match the homogolation car, with the exception of permitted variations in wing or spoilers, specific to individual courses.
Production based chassis. The bones need to come from an actual car. If your race car is all CF, then the homogolation car must be too.
Production engine block. The rest can be hand made exotica, but it has to live in a block that is shared with cars anyone can buy. The engine in the racing version must be mounted in the exact same location as the homogolation car.
Any number of cylinders. 6 cylinders or less can be super charged. Can't use twin turbos unless there is a production version with them. No limit on displacement, except can not exceed displacement of a production engine. Diesels up to 8 cyls can have a turbo.
Any type of transmission or gearbox, but it has to be manual shift only. Homogolation cars may have automatic shifting.
No electronic driver aids, and the homogolation cars must have a mode that shuts them off as well.
No exotic fuels. 100 octane race gas, e85 or diesel. No restrictors or specific HP limits. The limit is what you can get out of a production block on common fuels.
Minimal aero, absolutely no active aero. Any aero below 20" from the ground has to match exactly the production model. If the manufacturer is confident that thier under car aero package can survive life on a production car, then they can have at it, but what's on the race car must be identical to homogolation in every way. There will also be limits on wings and spoilers, that may vary from course to course.
Suspension is open with some limits. No limit on travel or basic configuration, but must work in the confines of the homogolation chassis. Some degreeree of active damping, like GM magna-ride may be permitted, ride hieght adjustment on the fly is a possibility, weight jacking is not. In the spirit of no electronic driver aids, these features can't be fully automated.
Tires are open to size and construction. Using more than 5 tires on a single day of the rally may result in a penalty.
And now, what you've all been waiting for..... I really want to say 2 wheel drive only, for maximum dramatic sliding. OTOH, a 7.0l V8 with a dumb AWD system sounds exciting too. Maybe only NA powered cars above a specific weight can have AWD. Obviously some details still need to be ironed out.
Group B racing was like the automotive version of heroin. Expensive, addictive and eventually would kill you so they made it illegal.
In reply to HappyAndy:
For maximum dramatic sliding you could just restrict the tires.
Honestly, big power, crappy tires and minimal aero seems to result in pretty fun racing regardless of venue.
David, were you able to round up the MG killer B for the article?
They did a feature on the MG Group B car, mid engine V-6 with motor breathed on by Williams(former Lotus guy). June 2015,
In reply to Toebra: Yes that's what I'm tawkin' 'bout .....love that stinger in the back!!!!
You know these were group B
$$$$ limit. Dramatically loosen the regs.
Same thing I'd like to see in F1.
z31maniac wrote: $$$$ limit. Dramatically loosen the regs.
That is kind of what they already did. They have a spec gearbox and other cost controls, but they opened up the restrictor a bit, they allow center differentials again, and manufacturers are allowed to build a specific engine if they don't feel any of their production engines are competitive (but there are set engine dimensions with respect to bore and stroke and other measurements).
They look stupid and are also boring to watch. All the suspension travel makes them clinical. People say they like watching Group B, but Group B was mostly incredibly ill-handling cars being driven by people who have had one night's sleep in the last four days. When B was killed and everyone went to Group A, and restrictions were set on rally schedules so that the crews could actually, you know, sleep, and the cars really were barely more than production cars... THAT is where you saw some wild driving. The rallies were like easy mode for the drivers and the cars weren't that fast, so they could really pitch them around, and they had to because they had like 6 inches of suspension travel so grip was scarce.
I think if I were given the chance to drive any car one time, it would be an 037 on gravel. That would be fun.
It is at this point that I point out that the GSL-SE may have only existed as a way to homologate the 13B into the RX-7, as FISA recognized the GSL-SE as the starting point for the Group B RX-7s as built by Mazda Rally Team Europe.
Maybe. Who knows? The Group A cars were bridge ported 12As.
And that the MRTE cars were shockingly stock and off-the-shelf. Underneath the composite body panels was a boring RX-7, still with stock lower links, and the engine and trans were common road racing parts, just a 300hp peripheral port 13B with a Weber IDA and a Comp box. The only really rally-specific stuff was, apparently, the rear axle.
The car I have been driving to work all week is more or less a quieter, heavy Group B car. I'd like to say my rear suspension is better, at least. And EFI kicks ass over carbs. (No peripheral port, but a decent bridge gives up little to a p-port...)
Toyota had unobtainium engines, Audi was at least based on actual road car parts but they charged out the wazoo for them, everyone else sold "technically" homologated cars (especially MG, who just built 200 competition cars!), while Mazda was very accessible. Which makes sense given that the Group B Mazdas were NOT a factory backed effort, they had factory assistance to some degree but nowhere near the level that Lancia and Peugeot and Audi and Ford had.
BrokenYugo wrote: In reply to HappyAndy: For maximum dramatic sliding you could just restrict the tires.
I was thinking about this and suspension. I revise my previous recommendation: Cars must have "stock" suspension travel, meaning that the race car can have no more travel then the homogolation car, and some type of tire restrictions that favor really hard compounds, but not a spec tire manufacturer or spec size. Perhaps a maximum width, and 2wd cars a much wider maximum than AWD.
That should make them much more sideways.
RS200... Boost gauge measured in Bars...
Lancing Delta S4... Turbo and supercharged...
What a boring world we live in
Yes! Group B was an era of awesomeness! And on a related note, MOAR RALLY COVERAGE PLEASE! Few things are more Grassroots than rally and the independent guys/gals that compete in regional rallies. I know it's more off the beat path (pun intended) than autocross or road racing, but there is no doubt it has and will continue to grow in popularity. Ask the SCCA about the regional rallycross participation numbers over the last few years.
Knurled wrote:z31maniac wrote: $$$$ limit. Dramatically loosen the regs.That is kind of what they already did. They have a spec gearbox and other cost controls, but they opened up the restrictor a bit, they allow center differentials again, and manufacturers are allowed to build a specific engine if they don't feel any of their production engines are competitive (but there are set engine dimensions with respect to bore and stroke and other measurements). They look stupid and are also boring to watch. All the suspension travel makes them clinical. People say they like watching Group B, but Group B was mostly incredibly ill-handling cars being driven by people who have had one night's sleep in the last four days. When B was killed and everyone went to Group A, and restrictions were set on rally schedules so that the crews could actually, you know, *sleep*, and the cars really were barely more than production cars... THAT is where you saw some wild driving. The rallies were like easy mode for the drivers and the cars weren't that fast, so they could really pitch them around, and they had to because they had like 6 inches of suspension travel so grip was scarce.
I agree with you. The current WRC cars are reported as having somewhere between 12 to 14 inches of suspension travel. Between that and the aero, they are just way better behaved.
Current-spec WRC are way faster than Group B. The problem with Group B, is that the FIA just took away almost all the rules. Aluminum cages, fuel tanks under the seats, crowds 6 inches away from the roads, etc. When you start killing spectators and drivers because you didn't regulate safety, that is when you have to say whoa, like the FIA did.
And yes put me down as liking Group B. Sport Quattro please!
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