On a side note, according to the patent, it is an automatic. Well there goes that debate.
On a side note, according to the patent, it is an automatic. Well there goes that debate.
I still say no clutch pedal equals automatic.
Seriously? Ford in 1984? If they've held the patent that long, why have they never built one?
jstein77 wrote: Seriously? Ford in 1984? If they've held the patent that long, why have they never built one?
because they can make more money by licensing the intellectual property to someone who thinks they can make more money building one. 
93EXCivic wrote: I still say no clutch pedal equals automatic.
I still say no torque converter equals manual.
DILYSI Dave wrote:93EXCivic wrote: I still say no clutch pedal equals automatic.I still say no torque converter equals manual.
I enjoy selecting my own gears most of the time, in the traditional shifter sense. That being said, my main concern is that the gearbox doesn't do anything funny midcorner, and that I can instantly, solidly, and intuitively adjust thrust at the wheels with the gas pedal.
So for me, no uncertainty about the gas pedal->tires connection equals "manual enough". A CVT that did this really well certainly wouldn't be called a manual, but it might do everything I want well enough that I wouldn't care anymore.
jstein77 wrote: Seriously? Ford in 1984? If they've held the patent that long, why have they never built one?
regardless of who held the patent, if the technology does not exist to properly put an idea into production, it will take time. (note when the structure of the computer were patented- well before electronics caught up to the ideas).
Even now, you see that there are plenty of bugs in these kinds of transmissions. That's with modern control hardware, more up to date clutch materials, and light years more powerful compters.
Ford is producing their own now. First in the Fiesta, next will be the Focus. Ford has said that by 2013 , most of their cars will have it.
What do you guys think they debated in the 50's with mopars "fluid drive" had both clutch and torque converter.....my 1st car was a 50 Dodge wayfair
I think they should make a DSG with a stick-shift. Not like a SMG slapstick, but a legit, gated digital stick.
all well and fine... but does not sound as fun as a traditional manual
FlightService wrote: On a side note, according to the patent, it is an automatic.
Just shows Ford was wrong again.
Automatic is when it shifts automatically for me. If I have to do it then it can't be automatic regardless of whether there's a clutch or not.
We have this discussion nearly every day here at GRM. Instead of considering power interrupt between gear changes or net shift time or torque multiplication vs coupling efficiency, the conversation always veers off into the vehicular equivalent of masturbation:
"....Yeah, but I like to yank back and forth on a big hard stick"
for me, if the gearbox can change gears for me, it's an automatic, regardless of how many gears it has. if I have to change my own gears, regardless of the number of pedals I have to operate or the method by which the engine is coupled to the input shaft of the gearbox or even the method by which I change gears, it is a manual. like that sequential-style transmission that Toyota offered in the MR-2 Spyder, no clutch pedal but it would not shift itself so it is a manual. modern Ferraris with the flappy paddle gearboxes, if they won't shift themselves, they are manuals. see a recurring theme here?
What about the Ferraris where you can select to pull the paddles, or push a button, and the transmission will shift itself? Splitting hairs, I know, but....
Steve Chryssos wrote: We have this discussion nearly every day here at GRM. Instead of considering power interrupt between gear changes or net shift time or torque multiplication vs coupling efficiency, the conversation always veers off into the vehicular equivalent of masturbation: "....Yeah, but I like to yank back and forth on a big hard stick"
Ok now that was funny
I think anything with a button is a pair of pants. Therefor my car is a pair of pants because is has buttons.
If it works does it really matter?
A fart by anyother name would still piss off the wife when you put the covers over her head.
triumph5 wrote: What about the Ferraris where you can select to pull the paddles, or push a button, and the transmission will shift itself? Splitting hairs, I know, but....
That's the beauty of the DSG, it can be either. You can shift it when you wanna and if the software is there you can also sit back with a broken hand or foot and still drive your car.
44Dwarf wrote: What do you guys think they debated in the 50's with mopars "fluid drive" had both clutch and torque converter.....my 1st car was a 50 Dodge wayfair
I had a '50 Desoto with that. Had two ranges. Low was great for burning rubber.
DILYSI Dave wrote:93EXCivic wrote: I still say no clutch pedal equals automatic.I still say no torque converter equals manual.
This has always been my shibboleth. If the torque is converted, it's an automatic tranny.
I'm starting to think twice about that, though.
Also interesting:
In 1971, the Ford car company built an experimental airbag fleet. General Motors tested airbags on the 1973 model Chevrolet automobile that were only sold for government use. The 1973, Oldsmobile Toronado was the first car with a passenger air bag intended for sale to the public. General Motors later offered an option to the general public of driver side airbags in full-sized Oldsmobile's and Buick's in 1975 and 1976 respectively. Cadillacs were available with driver and passenger airbags options during those same years. Early airbags system had design issues resulting in fatalities caused solely by the airbags.
Airbags were offered once again as an option on the 1984 Ford Tempo automobile. By 1988, Chrysler became the first company to offer air bag restraint systems as standard equipment. In 1994, TRW began production of the first gas-inflated airbag. They are now mandatory in all cars since 1998.
80's doesn't sound right, tractors have had dual clutch gearboxes since the 50's, quick patent search shows: "Tractor Drive with Dual Clutch" - Richard Sheppard 1958, I'm sure there are more from that era.
Tractors and other commercial on/off-highway vehicles have always been much more bad a$$ than sissy sportscars, specifically with regard to technological innovation. Afterall, a sportscar's job is to pretend at being able to do the job of a racecar, a commercial vehicles job is, well, to do a job.
I dont care if they call it a manual or an automatic or something inbetween. As long as it does what i want it to do when I want to do it, I'll be happy... and of course be able to do a "rev it to 3000 rpm and dump the clutch" type maneuver 
alfadriver wrote:jstein77 wrote: Seriously? Ford in 1984? If they've held the patent that long, why have they never built one?Even now, you see that there are plenty of bugs in these kinds of transmissions.
Indeed. It appears that ford may be having a spot of trouble with theirs http://jalopnik.com/#!5774473/ford-quietly-replacing-fiesta-transmissions-on-owner-complaints
grpb wrote: 80's doesn't sound right, tractors have had dual clutch gearboxes since the 50's, quick patent search shows: "Tractor Drive with Dual Clutch" - Richard Sheppard 1958, I'm sure there are more from that era. Tractors and other commercial on/off-highway vehicles have always been much more bad a$$ than sissy sportscars, specifically with regard to technological innovation. Afterall, a sportscar's job is to pretend at being able to do the job of a racecar, a commercial vehicles job is, well, to do a job.
Is that twin disk (multiple friction plates stacked onto a single output shaft) or dual clutch like int he DSG, with two independent input shafts?
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