Whoa! Trading parts for your Challenge Car should count against your sell off.

Whoa.  Trading parts for your Challenge car should count against your sell off.  Otherwise it's a work around.  If we have a work around we should not have the sell off rule.  

I've always valued a trade like I sold an item for $100, and bought one for $100.  That $100 shows up on the sell off limit.  

From official rules

"Any inside deals—parts, whole cars, trades, donations, stolen parts, etc.—must be added to the budget at fair market value."

Whoa!!! No!!!!  That's not how it's ever worked. But if you think about it it still not easy. You have to find someone that not only wants what you have but also is willing to trade for something you want. 

But if anyone is interested I have bunches of big block Cadillac parts up for trade. Heads, crank, block, timing covers.  Holla. 

I suppose it is sort of a workaround to the selloff limit, although one that's difficult to exploit.

I kinda agree with spin_out.

I mean if I bought a real nice challenge car for 2018$ and then sold off 1009$ in parts and then after that "traded" 1400$ in more parts off it. I would have gotten the same as 2409$ recoup from a 2018$ car. And still have 1009$ in room left.

You could even exploit this loophole by having each person that wants to buy something off your car just buy a new part that you want and bring it to "trade" for your part.

The Challenge is about showing how you maximized your value for the money spent. Some do that with a good buy, some with sweet equity, some by being budget wizards, and some by all these methods.  If I bought Cadillac parts for $125 but I can turn that into $500 of value in my car then that just means I did a good job of maximizing the value of my car. 

I think the point he was making was. Why have a recoup limit if you can just loophole your way directly around it?

Daeldalus said:

I think the point he was making was. Why have a recoup limit if you can just loophole your way directly around it?

Because some loopholes are better than others. The recoup limit was put into place to curtail some shenanigans. As far as I know, the trading loophole hasn't triggered those same sets of eyes. By all means, go ahead and be teh one that makes them write a rule for you. Stampie already has one for him. 

Sorry all, not going to change the parts trading loophole. I reallllllly don't want to open this can of worms.

Also keep in mind that the whole idea of the challenge is to highlight for the magazine how creative we can be in our hobby of building cars on a low budget. Trading and swapping parts is part of the game, as is selling off parts you don't need and the total budget allowed.  The total spend of $2018 and then the selling of parts for 1/2 of that is meant to keep it low budget and creative. Trading a T5 transmission that came with a parts car, for $150 in DOM tubing to build a cage, is not taking advantage of the rules, just playing the game. None of this violates the spirit of the event and trading of parts is probably part of most people's builds for the challenge.  As long as it is reasonable (FMV) for a similar (FMV) item, I don't have a problem with it and it does not diminish any of the builds.

With that said, of course there are ways to cheat, but it will be obvious to everyone involved if you try to claim that you traded $500 in crap hardware for a full Z06 drivetrain......

Is this like the kid who "traded" continuously up from a giant paperclip to a Lambo?

Although, it's more about assembling parts than just up-trading continuously for a better car.

Daeldalus said:

I think the point he was making was. Why have a recoup limit if you can just loophole your way directly around it?

It's not as easy as you make it sound.  For example the Pinto Bean build is the first I'm trying to really get value trading.  I paid $300 for the car but before I even picked it up I started thinking about what I should sell and what I should hold back for trades. I got a surprise bonus at pick up that then made me go as far as consider what crowds the different parts would appeal to and which crowds would be more likely to have the parts I want to trade for. I did my first trade within minutes of loading the car up.  That said I'll have to store these extra parts for who knows how long waiting for that person willing to trade. You have to be a little touched as we say in the South to go to these lengths. 

Can I trade parts for money, then trade the money for parts, and therefore avoid the sell off limit. Seems totally legit.  Trading is no more clever than skipping the middle step.  

I'm ok with trading.   It just needs to count against your sell off.    This trade thing must be newish.  (Last few years or so.)   I got wind of it last year but stayed quiet.  But it's way too ripe for abuse.    If it stays I think I can easily buy a new aluminum head.  

I remember someone (maybe wheels) saying how it was hard to explain how these were $2,000 cars, but I can buy new tires and brakes that don't count toward the budget.  Now add  "but I can trade off for thousands of dollars of equipment, but not sell and buy that same equipment."  What??  Who okayed this mess?

Trading is exactly that, trading parts you have from the initial car purchased for the challenge or a parts car purchased for other parts. You can't trade parts for money, that is selling and is covered under the cap on the total recoup.  I think you are reading into this much more that is necessary.  This rule is not being abused, it is just a common practice for all of us and part of the "game". There has always been the ability to protest a build if you feel there has been cheating.  These are much like a Lemons car, there is a $2018 cap, but they have to allow for safety, thus the free tires and brakes to keep the cars safe. Nothing has changed here, this is how I always understood it since building my car back in 2006.

Neutral value trading has always been allowed and has never been abused to the point where it needs to be different. If you want the rule changed you pretty much need to abuse it so badly that it has to be changed to prevent it's use in the future. If no one actually does that, then it's not actually a problem.

How do you put the trade on the standardized spreadsheet?    

Ok, we were easily going to surpass the sell off limit (we commonly have).  Now I'll work trades first, then the sell off.  Aftermarket Aluminum head .... here we come.  

And this clearly is a work around on the sell off rule.  Why even have a rule with an unlimited work around.  Good Luck explaining this rule to an outsider.  My thought is a Solution is to raise the sell off and make people reflect FMV of trades on the sell off list.  I could fit a Mustang though this loop-hole.  I just might.

There was a Town Hall Meeting (possibly $2016) where Tim was talking about some rules abuse.  I never understood what he was saying exactly, but I do see how this could have been it.  

Budget value: $0. Then write something like "Traded 15" 4x100 wheels for heads with damaged valve guides" and note your receipt number.

It’s not a loophole, it’s directly written in the rules.  I did some trading but it’s super difficult to get someone with something you need and wanting something from your challenge car.  It used to be written differently with trades being acceptable until you reach recoup, then svrex was like “just never hit full recoup and trade away” then the current wording was made.

it’s not meant to be the paperclip to a house deal.  If you tried that all the middle transactions aren’t directly related to the build.

fYI i’m always willing to trade challenge car parts even if I don’t have a direct need for what i am getting back, if it can help another person make the event.  I traded calvin the heads that were on his car for the corvair shell and some wheels.  His dad is so cheap(in a good way) that it made sense for them, and i’m so cheap that it made way too much sense for me.   Darth Nader isn’t able to come without trading, just because that’s how i acquired most of it thus far.  

Use your newfound knowledge to make your car a little better.  I love you guys and the challenge would be a sad place without the Cobra Kai Speed Shop.  Play within the rules, leave it to Stampie to bugger it up finding loopholes.  

Just want to point out: trading parts for money and then trading that money for other parts is NOT the same as trading parts for parts.

Using money makes it way easier and that is what counts in recoup limits.

Robbie said:

Using money makes it way easier and that is what counts in recoup limits.

Everyone wants money. Not everyone wants your leftover crap. 

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

My emperical experience shows that no one wants my leftover crap.

"Any inside deals—parts, whole cars, trades, donations, stolen parts, etc.—must be added to the budget at fair market value. "

Quoted from the rules, not the Q&A.  Doesn't this mean trades should show up on your sell off list at FMV.   I thought it did.

Robbie said:

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

My emperical experience shows that no one wants my leftover crap.

To be fair this year your leftovers were cutoffs from a saab.  Generally nobody wants those

spin_out said:

 

 

"Any inside deals—parts, whole cars, trades, donations, stolen parts, etc.—must be added to the budget at fair market value. "

 

Quoted from the rules, not the Q&A.  Doesn't this mean trades should show up on your sell off list at FMV.   I thought it did.

That's saying an inside trade deal, meaning you traded your uncle a used brake pad for two good racing tires and he only did it for you because he's your uncle. That needs to be added to budget at fmv.

We all understand the rule and that any trade that is too hard to believe is an inside deal. It is clear and Tom has addressed it so this just hot air at this point. It sounds like spin_out did not understand the rules, but 99% of the rest of us understand what is trading of parts, and what is taking advantage with shady "trades" so I see any reason to change anything.

If someone comes to the challenge with a new ZO6 motor and claims it was traded for some of their crap, we will all run them out of the parking lot