Why aren't there more rwd cars?

Seriously, is it just that the hype about them being bad in foul weather? Is it packaging advantages of fwd, are tranny tunnels so bad?

The IS300 vs Mazda 6 vs Maxima thread got me wondering why anyone would cross shop the dynamic bliss and wonderful driftyness of a rwd car with an lsd as opposed to a fwd car of the same size with an open diff.

Same for same, would you choose fwd and if so, why?

Disclaimer: please, die hard fwd fans, please don't take offense to this thread. I mean you no harm.

Consider the average car operator, as opposed to the driver/ enthusiast, and you can understand why car manufacturers find the safety behaviour of fwd appealing. Additionally, think about assembly. If the entire drivetrain can be assembled separate from the car and attached with one station, you save seconds per car. That's millions of dollars of time over a year's production run...

I'll chime, seeing as I currently have 3 RWD cars (Triumph, e21, e30), an AWD car (WRX), and a 4x4, and have had many FWD cars. I'm not a "die-hard" fan of any. Each has their advantages. I like RWD on the track and rallycross for the fun factor. I prefer something driving the front wheels for DD in all-weather (AWD in my case, so it still has some of the fun).

1. FWD is better in bad weather, such as snow. It's physics. The weight is over the drive wheels, and power is going through the wheels that steer. RWD cars can certainly drive in snow, but FWD (or AWD) will be better from a safety and not-getting-stuck standpoint assuming the cars are otherwise equal weight, tire width/type, etc. I can drive RWD in the snow, and did it for years (in a TRIUMPH!). I can drive faster and safer in a FWD or AWD car. RWD can do snow (I'm sure someone will come in here and tell how he drives 50 miles in 3 feet of snow every morning in an open-diff RWD car with bald tires because he is just such a badass manly driver)....but FWD is safer and better at it in almost every case. Look at how much faster FWD rally cars are than RWD ones, in general. Traction.

2. FWD cars have more interior volume than RWD/AWD, in most cases (again, assuming comparable-sized cars). That matters to most people for their everyday cars. The trunk on my WRX sucks with the big bump-up in it for the diff, etc. Same for most RWD cars other than full-size boats.

3. Why are you comparing RWD car with LSD to FWD with open? That's even more apples and oranges than usual. Would you want a RWD car with an open diff? What about FWD with LSD?

4. For daily driving, most people don't care about "wonderful driftyness." In fact, most people would prefer to do without it. And I prefer not to have a bunch of people who are bad drivers trying to turn out onto the street in a RWD car and spinning out in front of me (it's happened twice with Mustangs in the last week alone, with wet/cold roads).

5. Motorsports enthusiasts are a very small portion of people who buy cars. Most of the population thinks of them as transportation, not "fun."

6. FWD is arguably more economical. Less drivetrain loss = more power to wheels, better fuel economy (in theory).

Each has their advantanges. For the general driving public, I would consider FWD preferable for appliance cars....civics, focus, versa, whatever....for the performance-minded public I would say RWD is more fun, especially if you don't live in the north.

As for me, I prefer AWD for DD duties....with the suspension dialed to mild oversteer when pushed, or mild understeer when I'm groggy during my 6am commute on the beltway...

so those are my thoughts, which I'm sure people will rip apart depending on what side of the fence they are on. I like FWD AWD RWD....just depends on what I want to do with the car at any given time.

it's nothing about safety. it's all about packaging for manufacturing.

I guess I meant "why would an enthusiast choose a fwd over a rwd car".

irish44j wrote: I'll chime, seeing as I currently have 3 RWD cars (Triumph, e21, e30), an AWD car (WRX), and a 4x4, and have had many FWD cars. I'm not a "die-hard" fan of any. Each has their advantages. I like RWD on the track and rallycross for the fun factor. I prefer something driving the front wheels for DD in all-weather (AWD in my case, so it still has some of the fun). 1. FWD is better in bad weather, such as snow. It's physics. The weight is over the drive wheels, and power is going through the wheels that steer. RWD cars can certainly drive in snow, but FWD (or AWD) will be better from a safety and not-getting-stuck standpoint assuming the cars are otherwise equal weight, tire width/type, etc. I can drive RWD in the snow, and did it for years (in a TRIUMPH!). I can drive faster and safer in a FWD or AWD car. RWD can do snow (I'm sure someone will come in here and tell how he drives 50 miles in 3 feet of snow every morning in an open-diff RWD car with bald tires because he is just such a badass manly driver)....but FWD is safer and better at it in almost every case. Look at how much faster FWD rally cars are than RWD ones, in general. Traction. 2. FWD cars have more interior volume than RWD/AWD, in most cases (again, assuming comparable-sized cars). That matters to most people for their everyday cars. The trunk on my WRX sucks with the big bump-up in it for the diff, etc. Same for most RWD cars other than full-size boats. 3. Why are you comparing RWD car with LSD to FWD with open? That's even more apples and oranges than usual. Would you want a RWD car with an open diff? What about FWD with LSD? 4. For daily driving, most people don't care about "wonderful driftyness." In fact, most people would prefer to do without it. And I prefer not to have a bunch of people who are bad drivers trying to turn out onto the street in a RWD car and spinning out in front of me (it's happened twice with Mustangs in the last week alone, with wet/cold roads). 5. Motorsports enthusiasts are a very small portion of people who buy cars. Most of the population thinks of them as transportation, not "fun." 6. FWD is arguably more economical. Less drivetrain loss = more power to wheels, better fuel economy (in theory). Each has their advantanges. For the general driving public, I would consider FWD preferable for appliance cars....civics, focus, versa, whatever....for the performance-minded public I would say RWD is more fun, especially if you don't live in the north. As for me, I prefer AWD for DD duties....with the suspension dialed to mild oversteer when pushed, or mild understeer when I'm groggy during my 6am commute on the beltway... so those are my thoughts, which I'm sure people will rip apart depending on what side of the fence they are on. I like FWD AWD RWD....just depends on what I want to do with the car at any given time.

The rwd/lsd vs fwd/open diff portion of the question stems from the original comparison between maxima/IS300/mazda6.

carbon wrote: I guess I meant "why would an enthusiast choose a fwd over a rwd car".

FWD cars can be plenty fun, and you get the aforementioned better packaging and better foul-weather performance. In the hypothetical world, you may have a point, though.

In the actual world where I need to buy cars with my own money, there are a lot more FWD cars on the market, they're typically much cheaper, and I can get them in many different configurations. You can get a lot more car for your money if you're willing to compromise on the driven wheels.

So why don't more companies built more RWD cars, especially entry level people movers? Because enthusiasts don't drive the market, we just have to deal with what's out there. And what's out there is a lot of reasonably priced, decently performing FWD cars that can fill a lot of roles.

carbon wrote: I guess I meant "why would an enthusiast choose a fwd over a rwd car".

again depends on what enthusiast wants to do with it. I like to drive up into the mountains of W.Va during snowstorms to go skiing. I can take the mountain roads with the WRX and get there in 3 hours in the snow. Or I can drive half as fast up the mountains in a RWD car.

Rallycross (and stage rally) FWD cars are typically faster than the RWD cars (though RWD is far more fun than either FWD or AWD. We had an old Escort GT that ran with our run group this season in rallycross, and in any slippery conditions, he always crushed the times of even the fastest/highest-prepped RWD cars.

So if we break down enthusiasts into "people who want fun" or "people who want to be faster in competition," again the answer could be different.

Also the fact that most late-model RWD cars tend to be $$$$ compared to a FWD car that is (vaguely speaking) "just as fast".

The end answer is "because people like what they like, or like what car does for them what they want it to do." NO amount of arguing or justification will change that....

But if the "rush" of going fast on the road and on the track is the real end-goal here, why don't we all just drive crotch-rockets?

carbon wrote: The rwd/lsd vs fwd/open diff portion of the question stems from the original comparison between maxima/IS300/mazda6.

BTW, many Maximas came stock with LSD...01 Anniversary edition with VQ30DE-K...02-03 (and maybe later) most of the VQ35 cars did too...

Would be interesting to take comparably-priced performance cars and do a track test. Say...BRZ/FRS vs. Mazdaspeed3 or Focus ST. All about the same price. Which would be faster?

patgizz wrote: it's nothing about safety. it's all about packaging for manufacturing.

sorry, for the typical clueless appliance driver, RWD is definitely easier to get in trouble with than FWD. Understeer is the friend of bad drivers. Oversteer, not so much.

For "us" here....no, I would agree it's not a safety issue.

I like small cars. Fiesta small. I also like to be able to do stuff with my car like put people or stuff in it. There really isn't any way to do those things in a RWD car. As far as dynamics, FWD isn't bad, it's just different. In rallycross (which is my sport of choice) the FWD cars are faster enough that they split the 2wd class so the RWD cars could actually win something against each other.
Having said all that, right now my rallycross car right now is RWD because I acknowledge that the dynamics of the two are different and I need to learn to drive better. Someday I'll go back.
Given the choice of one car to do it all, I'll always choose a small FWD hatch.

A well executed, strong argument. (Edit: lots happened while I typed this, to Irish's 1st quote)

Crotch rockets are the answer!

Edited.

From a manufacturing stand point, $$$$$$$

That's the only reason.

Why can't we get a Mustang 4 door? Or easier access to the new Impala? 400hp, RWD, 6spd and 4 doors without being 50k and German. That is the real question.

I'll be that guy. I absolutely do not have the skills to drive a FWD car in the snow. Give me rwd in any situation.

former520 wrote: Why can't we get a Mustang 4 door? Or easier access to the new Impala? 400hp, RWD, 6spd and 4 doors without being 50k and German. That is the real question.

They don't sell in large enough numbers to justify their existence. Simple as that.

carbon wrote: I guess I meant "why would an enthusiast choose a fwd over a rwd car".

Got me. I don't own a FWD vehicle. RWD and 4WD only.

I was a kid when America was beginning to make the shift from rear wheel drive to front wheel drive. Most of my father's rationale at the time centered on winter traction.

irish44j wrote: Would be interesting to take comparably-priced performance cars and do a track test. Say...BRZ/FRS vs. Mazdaspeed3 or Focus ST. All about the same price. Which would be faster?

Sounds like something a performance car magazine needs to do (ehem). Fun, and involvement should be a factor too. Faster isn't always the deciding factor for me.

carbon wrote: A well executed, strong argument. (Edit: lots happened while I typed this, to Irish's 1st quote) Crotch rockets are the answer!

as you can see, it's a slow evening at my house as I wait to go meet my dealer to exchange this stupid loaner Jeep Wrangler for my wife's Sequoia with its new all-terrains on it. He needs to call soon.....it's too cold to be driving a mf-ing Jeep tonight.

irish44j wrote:

carbon wrote: The rwd/lsd vs fwd/open diff portion of the question stems from the original comparison between maxima/IS300/mazda6.

BTW, many Maximas came stock with LSD...01 Anniversary edition with VQ30DE-K...02-03 (and maybe later) most of the VQ35 cars did too...

I did not know that. Good info. Lsd makes a big difference, not enough to swing me but big.

irish44j wrote:

carbon wrote: A well executed, strong argument. (Edit: lots happened while I typed this, to Irish's 1st quote) Crotch rockets are the answer!

as you can see, it's a slow evening at my house as I wait to go meet my dealer to exchange this stupid loaner Jeep Wrangler for my wife's Sequoia with its new all-terrains on it. He needs to call soon.....it's too cold to be driving a mf-ing Jeep tonight.

Thanks for reminding me that it's too cold to ride my Tl1000r tonight, berker.

If I could only ever have one format forevermore, it'd probably be RWD, or possibly AWD (especially if I can have a rear bias).

That said, there are many things that make a car fun. I really want another Mk1 GTI right now. Small, light, immediate... not that you can't have those with RWD, but the overall character of those cars is really charming to me. They're both very fun and very forgiving.

I like them all. I have driven them all. I think in snow that AWD is pretty boring.. And FWD is the best compromise between fun and stability. RWD can work, I did it for years, but it is a lot more work.