Why did Subaru show a first-gen Forester at the New York Auto Show?

Tom1200 said:

 

....My Outback is now on 146K. If it does pop the head gasket I will give serious consideration to replacing the engine. The car is a Swiss army knife.......it fits my needs really well and it's the last of the 6 speed manuals.

And that is the "problem".  They certainly have rather infamous engine reliability issues (which might be skewed a bit by slapping high boost turbos on some of them), but are also generally loved by those who drive them because of their other characteristics (e.g. the Forrester has some of the best visibility for a modern car). 

My Subaru experiences were 1978 4x4 wagon that rotted out completely around 130k. A '81 4x4 hatchback that had well north of 180,000 on it when I sold it. '96 2.2 Impreza that went 220,000 on the original clutch and the '02 Forester with the 2.5 that predictably needed HG's and had the dreaded P0420 code. We replaced the HG's at around 100k where they usually need them and ran it to 180k before just becoming tired of it and selling it on. 

None of them were without some failures. Clutch cables (early models), a/c failures, and of course rumbling wheel bearings (rear). But easy/cheap to fix other than the 2.5 HG issue. Later ones were even decently rust resistant.

I drive a 2008 Forester on its second motor. I didn't buy it, it was gifted to the car collective I'm a part of. I would not have bought it. Why? Second motor is now using coolant, probably needs a new HG. Chassis has 180k. Car is still on the road though! 

Subaru can quote all the studies they want. I'm very unlikely to buy a Subaru without thinking it's going to need some major repair. Thankfully, the engines come out easily I hear. I would still rather have a RAV4. 

I have to hand it to their marketing team, they have done a great job convincing certain types of people to buy their product. Queer women, outdoorsy folks, flat brim hat wearing dudes, etc. i live around 100s of these people and they are bought into the brand even after multiple motors have been replaced and thousands invested. It's amazing to me. Whatever they are putting in the water, it's working. 
 

I however, remain unmoved.

I can buy a lot of puppies with the money it takes to replace a motor.

CyberEric said:

Still on the road on their second engine because the first one blew a HG and Subaru owners will pay to have a new engine put in vs buying a new car. 

All things Subaru aside: It's usually cheaper to repair the car you have versus buying a new one. Even if replacing an engine costs $6000, I'd love to see somebody get a new car for that price.

CyberEric said:

Still on the road on their second engine because the first one blew a HG and Subaru owners will pay to have a new engine put in vs buying a new car. 

I have a REALLY hard time believing there are more 10 year old Foresters on the road than 10 year old RAV4s. If I cared enough I'd look at the study and find the holes in it. I'll let someone else have those Subarus.

Subaru engine failures are really all not that common for non turbo models.  And even for the turbo models, they didn't all succumb to turbo death or exhaust valve chunking.

That said it is a lot cheaper to reseal a Subaru engine than fix the godawful four cylinder in a RAV4 when the intake sprocket fails.  (Part is way north of $1000, alone, plus gaskets and incidentals)  Or even to do a water pump on a V6... It's more labor intensive to replace the externally mounted water pump on a transversely mounted 2GR than it is to replace the timing chain driven water pump in a Flex.  (Going by memory here, recollection is 6hr for the Ford and 10hr for the Toyota)

People repair Subarus, people throw away Toyotas.

In reply to Tom1200 :

Oh I say that entirely in jest. The way I see 99% of those cars around here, it seems to me that would be the fate of most if they broke down. That said, I do appreciate them for what they do well, which, frankly, is a lot of things.

I'm tolerant of high maintenance expectations, if they are known when a buyer is going in. It's the "surprise, you need a new engine because you didn't check your oil within the last hour" that irks me a bit. So far they're the only car to have earned the status of Persona Non Grata in my garage haha. Helped a kid change out the auto in his Legacy a few years back, and those things are HEAVY.

Our 2018 Crosstrek is somewhere around 84k right now. I have replaced filters and fluids and that's it's. Original tires (they're due), original brakes, zero failures of any kind. It's even a CVT. It doesn't burn oil or leak coolant. It's averaged 33mpg even with me driving it like a sports car. I've done 14 hours in the drivers seat halfway across the country in a single push and could still feel my legs. It commutes, it camps, it got us further down a dirt trail than I've ever been. I even kinda like how it looks.

I was nervous when my wife wanted the car that it might not be reliable for us but I've been dead wrong. If it died tomorrow I would probably get another one. 
 

It's a damn good car. 

In reply to te72 :

The trans weighs more than the engine!

People talk about oh, the Subaru engine sits so far forward, it's bad for weight distribution.  Well, the trans weighs more and it sits behind the front wheels, and if you look at a transverse four cylinder, the engine AND trans sit in front of the front wheels, so it's kind of a wash or possibly advantage Subaru.

I'm no Subaru fanboi (he says having owned, like, five of them, one a 200k mile WRX with unopened engine) but I see it for what it is.  And the GC chassis had WONDERFUL dynamics... and this Forester is just a GC wagon with a tall roof.

In reply to CyberEric :

We've owned 3 Subarus

1996 Outback we got for my son as his first car. We sold it to my brother in law and it had 245k on it when the tranny died. We got it from the original owner and the original motor was still in it.

2002 Subaru Imprezza RS it too had the original engine and was over 200K We'd still have it if a pick up truck hadn't caved in the left rear corner.

My aforementioned 2011 Outback hopefully will give the same service as the other two.

Yes the early EJ25s had issues but it's nowhere near as bad as internet lore makes it out to be.

They are worth fixing because there simply isn't a car that can replace it. Where an I going to find a 6 speed manual awd wagon that isn't soul sucking to drive.........that doesn't cost $60,000.

(Long post warning) I'm really fascinated by what you are saying, Pete. I trust your knowledge, having read your comments for years. Same with you Tom1200.

So am I all wrong about Subarus? I'm really open to that possibility. I don't want to be the type of person who develops a story about something and then is married to it and shuts out evidence that the story isn't true. I want to stay open in my thinking about all things.

Let me share a bit about my experiences and why I think the way I do about Subarus. I've been on this forum for something like 10 years, and I've gotten the impression from this forum that I'd do well to steer clear of Subarus generally. I can't remember the exact comments or situations, so I get that's vague, but it's just a general sense I have that I think I've gotten here. I'm sure there have been plenty of stories about blown HGs.

Have I walked away with the wrong impression from GRM? Are Subarus better than I think?

Then there's real life. I can't think of a single car brand that has impacted my life more negatively. To wit, my roommate in college had an 80s Legacy that overheated up a hill, it was kaput, and the whole ordeal added hours to the trip. Another friend in college had a late 90s Outback that overheated, leaving him without a car. My current neighbor has an Impreza wagon, (mid 2000s) with rod knock and this is after it just got a new engine. And then there's the aforementioned 2008 Forester that I drive that is on its second engine, and it's consuming coolant already. Another friend has an '09 Forester that has needed new axles and a host of other things I can't even remember. Meanwhile my dads 2008 RAV4 V6 has needed absolutely nothing. 
 

I have never been stranded by another car company more than Subaru.

I also know a guy who ran an indie shop, and he told me Subarus put his kids through college. He told me to buy Hondas.

None of these are Subarus above are turbocharged either. Ironically, my best friend in my 20s had a WRX that never gave him problems.

I also question the design of the flat four. It seems problematic given all the leaks I hear about, and have seen. But I'm no engineer.

I read your post, and that Tom has all this good experience, and it just really doesn't make sense with my reality, both in real life and the impression I've gotten here (I'll skip the internet lore). If I want a car that isn't going to cost a lot and need a lot of maintenance, I'd better steer clear of Subarus. But I'm open to my reality being changed.

I get this is all subjective experience and a tiny sample size, but it's definitely soured me on the brand. Which is sad, because I agree that they do offer something. The AWD and MT combo is rare. And I don't mind the way the Forester drives. I don't like the engine much, but the chassis is pretty good. I also like that there are speciality shops galore in the area (at least three) so you can find a mechanic who knows the car (then I wonder, why are there so many shops for one make, is that suspicious?)

Anyway, sorry for the novel. But I'd love to hear any thoughts about what I've shared. 

The 96 Outback I have is getting close to 540k miles, it's not terribly good at anything in particular but it has never had any problems that took much effort or money to fix.

In reply to CyberEric :

First the HG issue is a real thing; Subarus are not tolerant of running hot.

Last year I thought mine was on the way out; turns out I didn't bleed the cooling system properly when I bled the radiator. When it got warm/hot I shut it off immediately.

If I remember the issue is in the deck design; the non turbo cars had an open deck on the block. I believe it was 2010 the started using the turbo style block in the NA cars. Also from memory it was the exclusively the EJ25 motors that have the issues.

It's kinda like German cars; they are not Toyota sturdy / tolerant of neglect but the do certain things well enough that many people are willing to deal with the trade off.

On your Forester I'd use head gasket sealer as it started to get worse.........nothing to lose.

They are far from perfect but for a lot of us they fit a niche.

I don't understand all the hate for Subaru engines, but maybe working on 70s and 80s American cars set a low bar.
 

We had a  2003 Forester that we traded in at 120k on a 2011 Elantra.

We had traded in a 1998 Corolla (had head gasket replaced) on the minivan in 2010 and I took over the forester. I was commuting 65 miles each way for work and the forester was due for brakes, struts, tires, and needed an a/c compressor. Except for the A/C compressor it was all maintenance (deferred or regular), but when they offered $4500 in trade on the Elantra it seemed like a no brainer. 

The only real issue we had with the forester was the oil pan rusting enough to seep. I replaced the oil pan, timing belts and water pump, spark plugs, and adjusted the valves. No issues that stranded us, and all work I coulD do in the driveway. 
 

In reply to Tom1200 :

Yeah this quote lines up with my experience: "It's kinda like German cars; they are not Toyota sturdy / tolerant of neglect but the do certain things well enough that many people are willing to deal with the trade off."

They really remind me of VWs. Some people I meet SWEAR by VWs telling me how bullet proof the A888 is and all, and I really like driving the GTIs and GLIs I've driven, but then I hear about their ownership experience and all the things they are fixing, and I'm like no thanks, ya'll are living in a different world. I used to be a BMW guy. I'm cured of that after years of drinking the kool aid. 

In reply to Tom1200 :

The 2.0 was open deck, too.

I think by 2010 they stopped using the EJ series engines in almost everything.  The FB engine is a completely different engine. Altogether.

(It's a completely different engine)

The Subaru head gaskets I have replaced were not due to cooling system issues, they would drool oil all over the exhaust manifold, which is really not something one should ignore for too long.

The FBs just eat the rod bearings or break the timing chain guides when the owners run them out of oil because Subaru went a little too far in reducing piston ring tension.

Nissan VQ engines are bad for external head gasket leaks, too, but nobody memes about those

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

My Outback has been dripping oil on the exhaust for 45K. 

In reply to Tom1200 :

One of my friends' Imprezas caught fire about three or four hours from home.  Not sure how long he had been ignoring it.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

One of my friends' Imprezas caught fire about three or four hours from home.  Not sure how long he had been ignoring it.

I clean it off when I change the oil.

In reply to David S. Wallens :

I didn't get to go this year, but I always like visiting the dogs. A few years ago they gave me a Forester toy for Ollie. 
 

CyberEric said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

Yeah this quote lines up with my experience: "It's kinda like German cars; they are not Toyota sturdy / tolerant of neglect but the do certain things well enough that many people are willing to deal with the trade off."

I'll agree and say both German cars and Subarus require the maintenance to get done when it's supposed to. I mean, all cars should get maintenance done on schedule, but some are better at shrugging off neglect than others.

I'm surprised nobody mentions Chevy Cavaliers with the 2.2 engine. My wife (girlfriend at the time) neglected the crap out of hers, and it would not die. Then I started driving it after we got married and had a kid and it just... kept going. Crap broke, like a door handle, the AC, interior pieces and such, but the driveline just would not quit.

I have a bias against Fords due to an issue we had with a FWD car with the 3.7. Two water pump failures before 100k, and the design dumped the coolant into the oil. Tons of owners complained about it, and it got close to a class action suit. There was a lot of chatter about the 5.4? engine blowing spark plugs out. Some of the Focus turbo engines were having issues.  Still, some people swear by Fords. 

We read about problems with Chevy engines here, especially the ones with cylinder deactivation. Some of the brand new trucks are eating valves in the first 10k miles according to people who work on them. Others still swear by Chevy.

We hear that all Mazdas rust to nothing in the salt belt. We hear Hondas always run, and ignore the hacked up Civics and disposable appliances that fail because none of the maintenance ever got done.

I think that some people look for things wrong with brand X on purpose, because they don't like the brand. Others hear stories about a brand and form a negative opinion, possibly forgetting that people are way more likely to spread bad news than good news.

 

Subaru knows how to market to niche crowds. They also know how to ostracize the crowds (us performance junkies). They also are still riding on marketing campaigns more than a decade old. I think they peaked pre-Covid 

Last year was the first time in over a decade I've been without a Subaru in my line-up. I've always enjoyed them, had very little problems with them, and found them fairly easy to work on. Their materials and quality are def below the price they sell them for but they are solid vehicles. I regret selling my Forester XT and 2015 STI because they were, as someone else said, absolute swiss army knives that always put a smile on my face driving (sans long trips and the seating position of the XT). 

I had 10 Subarus in total between ex-wife, ex-girlfriend, and my own. The 2012 WRX hatch was my only major problem child with the engine bearing issues. I never owned many of them long enough to see long term problems but hey, at least in the short-term they didn't leave me stranded like Fords do. 

In reply to DirtyBird222 :

I made the Swiss Army Knife comment because mine really is.

I bought the Outback because it was my alternative to a small 4wd truck that didn't drive like a truck.

I'm not a fanboi but I am surprised at how well mine works for me.

I haul race tires, engine blocks, go soft roading and even used it for instructor training on a wet track.

We had three Foresters: 98, 01 and 04. I drove the 04 for 50,000 miles. It really was a nice place to spend time. Comfy seats, great visibility, intuitive layout, very practical, reliable(up til I sold it at 150k) and got disappointing fuel economy.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Yeah, the EJ's were really light, and rather compact, I will give them that. Fun to drive too. I'd probably have irritated a lot of people at our local autocross if I'd had a WRX, once I figured out what the thing could truly do.

But those transmissions are ignorantly heavy. Seriously, two skinny kids should not be trying to pull one of those out from under a car. Blame whatever diff is inside that spins the front wheels, I suppose.

In reply to Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) :

Can confirm that Cavaliers with that old 2.2L were hard to kill. Mine lasted me the first five years of driving, a kid fueled by racing video games and nice open Phoenix roads to play around in. That car saw more air than some rally cars, no exaggeration. HOW it survived me... I'll never truly understand. The passenger window fell off its track and I didn't know how to fix that, so I used some sort of bungie cord material to secure it up. Pretty sure it had a blown head gasket there at the end, but it never did give me any real problems.

As for Subarus and why they break, I spent a lot of time with a guy I used to call a friend. He ran an independent shop, did pretty much anything and everything, just took forever to do most of it. Anyway, I helped that guy pull and reinstall more EJ's than I can even remember. Had to have been in the dozens by the time we quit hanging out, and we're only talking about like... an 8 year period, roughly. Again, this is a guy who didn't exactly work fast.

He's a smart guy, suggested that the oiling system design is poorly thought out. Interestingly, and perhaps related, I always found it noteworthy that Cosworth sold a dry sump kit for those engines...