Why does my car pull to the left?

Car is an '07 Odyssey

Camber is slightly out up front & rear.  About 0.8 cross camber rear and 1.0 cross camber front.

Toe seems to be in check.  -.01 up front.  .11 and .04 rear.  Thrust angle is -0.03deg  (I'm slightly confused how the thrust angle is not a product of the rear toe angles)

Recently got new tires.  Pull was present on old tires as well.

Brake pads are wearing evenly/caliper does not appear to be stuck.

Caster?  Maybe the cross camber up front is screwing up caster enough to create the left pull?  The alignment check the dealer did does not have a caster readout.  This is another case where they put it on the rack, said 'eh looks ok', then drove it and said 'I don't feel a pull' and basically didn't do anything.

Does it pull at low speeds, or only highway speed?

I've been chasing a subtle, constant left pull in my daily for a while now too. I have some cross-caster from an accident that I think is the source of it, but none of the local alignment shops can seem to compensate for it by inducing cross-camber. Only camber and toe are adjustable on my car, so it's tricky to get right. I am thinking about rigging up a mazduece bungie-level-tape measure system and doing it myself trial and error.

Any idea what the alignment looks like with occupants in the car? Any unusual spring sag that would throw things out of alignment with a load present?

Does it do it at constant speed, or only under acceleration / decceleration?

Constant speed, all speeds.

No idea if alignment changes with occupants, but it does it with just me in the car (180lbs) or the whole family in the car (maybe 340 total).  I changed the struts a while back, no sign of sag or anything like that.

I think at this point getting some crash bolts to correct cross camber up front (not adjustable) and adjusting the rear might be the best starting point.

rear steer can cause a perceived pull.

As in thrust angle?  -0.03 shouldn't cause a noticeable pull at all, right?

I had an MG 1100 that changed the thrust angle regularly    Worn trailing arm bushings.

Is the pull so that it will take you off the road if you let it or is the steering wheel off center.

Could one of the front axles be dragging a bit?

My pull will take you into oncoming traffic if you let it. And it wears you out after a road trip. I really need to find a good alignment tech near me who actually knows what they're doing. I even have crash bolts in my front struts, so there's plenty of room to play in.

I get the same feedback from shops as you. "Well it's within spec so..." and "I didn't feel it during the test drive, are you sure it's not the curvature of the road". 

I'm getting the same thing from one shop on my ZJ. It's frustrating as most shops seem to think if it's in spec it's fine, even if it still pulls. It makes driving a couple hours arduous.

I chased a pull on the F250 I had for a year. I knew something in the brakes was dragging because one wheel didn't free spin as well as the other, but it never showed uneven pad wear or pull under braking. After replacing stuff multiple times I hand filed the pad plates a little larger where they slid on the caliper and it fixed it.

I had a Volvo - 740 I think - that had power steering.  Started pulling to the right, so had it aligned and the tires rotated. It still pulled. 

Turned out, there was 'centering' valve on the rack (I assume it balanced the boost going to each side of the rack).  Followed directions to adjust it from a long lost web page, then drove the car for another five years and it never pulled  again.

iceracer said:

Is the pull so that it will take you off the road if you let it or is the steering wheel off center.

It is a pull.  It will take you off the road if you let it.  Steering wheel off center is just a front toe vs. centerline issue and easily corrected. 

I'll check the bushings, but visual inspection usually doesn't tell me much.

ManhattanM (fka NY535iManual) said:

Could one of the front axles be dragging a bit?

How would I tell?

I get the same feedback from shops as you. "Well it's within spec so..." and "I didn't feel it during the test drive, are you sure it's not the curvature of the road". 

 

I'm getting the same thing from one shop on my ZJ. It's frustrating as most shops seem to think if it's in spec it's fine, even if it still pulls. It makes driving a couple hours arduous.

Yes.  Infuriating.

Are you saying you have a full degree of camber difference left to right on the front?  On a modern vehicle with modern tires, that would pull up the side of Mount Everest.

CJ said:

I had a Volvo - 740 I think - that had power steering.  Started pulling to the right, so had it aligned and the tires rotated. It still pulled. 

Turned out, there was 'centering' valve on the rack (I assume it balanced the boost going to each side of the rack).  Followed directions to adjust it from a long lost web page, then drove the car for another five years and it never pulled  again.

240.  Cam Gear rack.

Streetwiseguy said:

Are you saying you have a full degree of camber difference left to right on the front?  On a modern vehicle with modern tires, that would pull up the side of Mount Everest.

yup.  And there is no adjustment.

Why does it create a pull?  Because it creates a caster difference?  Camber alone shouldn't cause any pull.

Related question:

How does one measure camber on a wheel that is much narrower than the tire mounted to it?  Any good tricks?

ProDarwin said:

Streetwiseguy said:

Are you saying you have a full degree of camber difference left to right on the front?  On a modern vehicle with modern tires, that would pull up the side of Mount Everest.

yup.  And there is no adjustment.

 

Why does it create a pull?  Because it creates a caster difference?  Camber alone shouldn't cause any pull.

Sure it does.  Do you own a wheel barrow?  How do you make it turn? 

There is always adjustment somehow.  In your case, I would wonder whether you can shift the cradle towards the side with positive camber, moving that control arm out, the other in.  My Camaro went to the alignment shop shortly after i bought it in 1982 to get a competition alignment.  The dude ignored the notes taped to the steering wheel, and set it up like an Impala on 78 series tires.  It turned left so hard i didn't even make it a block away before I turned around and asked why they ignored my request.

Anyway, find a good alignment shop that charges $150, not $29.95, and talk to them.  I bet it can be fixed.

In reply to ProDarwin :

"How would I tell?"

With the front of the car up on jackstands and transmission in neutral, if you push on both right and left tires with the same amount of force do they turn the same number of revolutions? Does one have noticeably more resistance? Also, and this would be a wierd one, and would not explain the camber issue, but are the tire diameter/circumference the same from right to left?

I assume you have looked at tire pressures?  Ya I know dumb but it got me once.  Modern tires really don't look low until they are really low.

If ALL of the suspension and steering components/joints are not loose:

Camber will pull to the side that is most positive

Caster will pull to the side that is least positive

On vehicles with adjustable rear camber/toe, adjust camber then toe (rear toe adjusts the thrust line/angle) yes, this could cause your condition

Next, front camber and caster are adjusted 

Front toe is last and should be adjusted using the rear toe as a reference

Steering axis inclination/McPherson strut inclination should be checked in case there is bent components that will affect these angles 

This is why doing an alignment without a good computerized machine is very time consuming and difficult without equipment

Yes, simple caster, camber and toe can be adjusted by you but most modern vehicles require a full 4 wheel alignment to be correct

I know some techs look for the "green is good" reading on the machine. They may not know the complete theory of alignment or have enough "alignment knowledge" to understand/diagnose/correct alignment issues

I'd like to get it as close as I can on my own before taking it to a shop.  Mainly to verify I have adjustment room.  I don't want to take it to a shop and have them say "we tried, but we can only get this close". 

Tips for shifting the cradle?   Loosen all the bolts and use a cam-strap to pull it to one side?  Or BFH?

I'll give that a shot, but I'll likely endup getting crash bolts so I have some fine(er) adjustment at the strut as well.

I would like an explanation on why cross camber would cause pull.  I totally get thrust angle or cross caster causing pull.  The cross camber confuses me.

The wheelbarrow analogy makes no sense to me as camber isn't what makes a wheelbarrow turn, you are actually moving the CG off center when you lean it.

I don't have a physics explanation.  If you want, forget the wheelbarrow, go borrow a stock car and try to drive it in a straight line.  Trust me, camber causes a pull. 

Every cradle is a bit different, but generally, there will be four bolts holding it to the unibody.  Generally, there is a bit of movement in those mounting bolt holes.  Pry it around with a big bar.

EDIT:  Consider: As I was driving to work this morning in my old Camaro with 245/50's on it, I contemplated why cars with fat tires always want to climb OUT of the ruts left on the freeway by years of trucks. 

If you measure camber at the tire you can get a false reading due to the slight bulge at the contact point.

Took this from:  "How do you measure camber when the tire bulges over the wheel ?"