Yeah, it is generally a long way around a certain part of the course. There is strategy involved in when you take your joker lap, too, because you might want to wait until the last lap if you are running away with the lead, but if you are a backmarker and take it early you can later pass a lot of people who take it late. (And I am sure there is some nuance I am missing)
Here, the driver is leading from the start and takes his joker lap on lap three of four. (Turn volume down unless you enjoy the sound of straight cut gears in a Volvo transmission)
They did have a series - it was called "US Rallycross" or "America Rally Cross" or something like that. IIRC the rules required a logbooked rally car to compete though - they did a couple events a few years ago (up in the Northeast as I recall) but didn't do too well - mostly because very few guys with expensive stage builds wanted to be on a course with other stage guys that maybe didn't mind bumping and rubbing quite as much. I certainly wouldn't bring my rally car on a course like that with other cars.
Something like that only works in the US if you can do it with beaters with janky cages - otherwise either the build is too expensive or the insurance is too expensive (pick one). Unlike road racing, it's way more likely to have hard contact doing something like this in rally cars and not worth the damage risk (yeah, I know, ironic from guys who hit trees and ditches all the time).
I think if the rules had allowed old/expired road-racing cages or something (maybe they did?) it would have done better. But I think it required a current logbook/cage.
In reply to irish44j :
ARX is/was the series running at Mid-Ohio, which is like an hour away from where I live.
I never spectated but I did find it interesting that the entry lists had people who were fairly local to me, who I had never heard of at rallycrosses or stage rally.
ProDarwin said:
Although there are *so few* rallyx competitiors in the US, it doesn't bode well for higher levels of competition.
I suspect you're right, though i sometimes wonder whether rallycross is an unhappy medium: Hard and dirty for the car, but thrills and seat time are more autocross than stage rally. (I could be totally wrong; I've never done one, but that impression of the pros/cons is why I've never wanted to either subject an existing car to it or go to the trouble of rounding one up specifically for it)
It all sort of reminds me of how cool it almost was when the spec Geo Metro stage rally nearly happened.
EDIT: Bringing it back to on-topic, that strikes me as an appealing thing for this other style; more seat time, more racing... Need a dedicated car, but it's still club-level, and still way less mayhem than stage rally from a logistical standpoint.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
ARX was all high dollar stuff like Travis Pastrana and factory teams. It isn't surviving for a second year, I assume because it was only high budget teams and there were only about 5 or 6 of them.
Ransom (Forum Supporter) said:
I suspect you're right, though i sometimes wonder whether rallycross is an unhappy medium: Hard and dirty for the car, but thrills and seat time are more autocross than stage rally. (I could be totally wrong; I've never done one, but that impression of the pros/cons is why I've never wanted to either subject an existing car to it or go to the trouble of rounding one up specifically for it)
Not to get too far off topic, but I think the perception may be that, the reality is not.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
In reply to irish44j :
ARX is/was the series running at Mid-Ohio, which is like an hour away from where I live.
I never spectated but I did find it interesting that the entry lists had people who were fairly local to me, who I had never heard of at rallycrosses or stage rally.
EDIT: I'm not talking about ARX. It was called something else, because this was more toward regional rally competitors, not big-name teams.
I could have sworn they had one up in NY someplace. I know Gary DeMasi competed there in his rally Ranger (and Gary being on course in one of these is reasion #1 that most other rally drivers would never do it......)
EDIT: It was in 2013 at Pocono, in PA. And it was called "American Rally-Cross." I guess they either sold the name to ARX, or the "dash" in the name made it "different enough" lol.
looks as if it was a combo tarmac/dirt event. Actually looks pretty fun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUb-HTo3L6k
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
the transmission sounds like the big blenders at Pulp
In reply to irish44j :
That was the reboot, the pre GRC group, back in 09-11ish, ran 5 events at NJMP before becoming GRC. It was done there as it was Subaru North Americas backyard. Outside of the amateur 2WD class, dominated by Josh Wimpey, there was a 4WD class with Pastrana, Block, Millen, Foust and others, Foust wasn't yet in a factory VW. Timeframe wise Block was in the black, white and green Fiesta and hadn't yet launched the gymkhana thing. It was also the first time that Travis and Lynzi were seen out together.
Adrian_Thompson said:
In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :
Nope. Most club level is FWD hatchback. There are millions of suitable sport compact cars that would be perfect donors.
You misunderstood. I wasn't referring to that race being the club level racing. It was obviously professional level.
My point is the prevalent club level racing in the US is oval dirt and asphalt racing, which continues up the ranks to the NASCAR and Indy Car professional series.
Of course club level rally in Europe would be with cheaper cars usually not AWD.
With professional rally being more popular in Europe, there would be more interest in club level racing. Here in the US, it's ovals.
Edit: oh yeah... and drag racing.
Excellent point on who ever said the probable competitor base is already doing 1/4 mile oval stuff. Never thought of that, but it makes sense.
People have mentioned the Joker. I hate it, I've no idea when it got introduced. There was never a joker inthe 80's and early 90's when I used to go and spectate. When the Red Bull GRC started I thought it was something they had added and hated it from the start. Then I saw some WRX (World Rallycross) and they have it in Europe now too. I vote for doing away with it.
Does anyone know why the attempts at club level rallycross in this country mentioned above required log booked rally cars? Why not start with old IT cars. Dozens of them out there for cheap.
In reply to Adrian_Thompson :
Joker laps maybe originated in scandinavia? I had rallycross footage from that Norwegian website around '00 that had joker laps.
We did an SCCA rallycross where there was a joker section. Makes things interesting when course degradation gets factored in, the first runs on a new surface are usually slower.
Jokers allow to escape the pack to reduce contact. It's smart in a format where passing with contact is difficult and there aren't a lot of laps to execute a safe pass.
I took my son to both ARX events at Mid Ohio and it was awesome, the action was great. There were not many people there spectating, no eyeballs no money, but it was awesome.
NOHOME
MegaDork
4/6/20 12:40 p.m.
Did Top Gear not make an attempt to re-invent the guest lap as a rallycross venue?
Personally, I see it as too close to demolition derby.
I worked the three different pro series for Rally Cross in the US over the years. I joke that I have the dead Rally Cross series lanyard collection.
Red Bull series was great but after working one of the events I knew it wasn't going to last just from the expenses. ARX just never had a chance. Bad time and not a lot of marketing.
I think the real place this would be a place to be would be short track pavement tracks. Use the straights with movable barriers. Would be better place to look than anywhere else. I think that crowd would really like it and promote it.
just do it like staduim super trucks, basically pro 2/lite off road series trucks with ramps added to different parts of the track.
AMEC's tracks were short and 99% dirt.
Rallycross in Sweden today, is not very cheap but of course it also depends on what you compare it to.
If we're speaking about "club level" we really have 2 (and a half maybe) classes and they are based on production cars. The lower class is called "2150" and the higher is "2400" (or "Super National). The class names refer to the maximum engine size in cubic centimeters and it is basically derived from the abundance of Volvos, namely the old red block B21-B23x's. With some overbore they end up at 2150 and 2400 cc respectively.
In the 2400 class at least, you are allowed to convert a fwd body into rwd. So you will find lots of modern-ish fwd hatches that basically has heavily modifed Volvo 240 running gear under the shell.
Because of these restrictions in engine size, and the ongoing development, building a competitive car and engine within the rules is pretty expensive. While the 2150 class limits other modifications, you have to build 2150 cc 2v (or 1800 cc 4v) NA engine that gives around 230 bhp and 260 Nm, and in the 2400 class at least 300 bhp.
A well used 2400 car is usually around 15-20 k$ on the market and a winner probably twice or three times that.
It's a fun sport to watch and no doubt fun to race but designing a series in the US would be "interesting" - this builds on heritage from the 1970's where it has evolved from just taking your stage rally car on a simple track in a sand pit to quite a specific kind of racing. And to be honest, Rallycross is facing some challenges here...
Gustaf
In reply to therealpinto :
The people who spend that kind of money in the US do it with drag racing, or circle track racing. There is money from the promoters and money from sponsorships, so for the most part it is not the racer's money being spent. Late night dirt track racing usually happens in front of packed stands so there is a lot of money flowing around.
Stage rally and SCCA rallycross are very much privateer efforts, the main "sponsor" is the competitor's day job. Given that European style rallycross looks to be a lot more expensive than either one of those, there would have to be sponsorship money involved, meaning stadiums with paying spectators, and there just is not enough interest for that for anything but one or two major events per year.
Count me in the camp of in the USA we do have euro style rallycross and it's done on 1/4 mile dirt ovals. When you can slap a dirt car together for $1500-$2000 how do you convince people they will have more fun with a $4000-$5000 old IT car to do the same exact thing. The inclusion of right hand corners just isn't enough of a draw.
When I was involved with rally I used to make this statement "Why isn't rally popular in America? Because it isn't?
Read I've stopped questioning it..................people like what they like.
I do wonder whether the timing just hasn't been right yet. The folks with time, money, and inclination so far have been brought up on drags and ovals to a great extent.
I wonder what will happen in the wake of folks whose intro to motorsports was the Ken Block Gymkhana videos. I mean, drift is big, and maybe that's all in the same bucket, but I suspect there's more awareness of rally-adjacent disciplines now than there ever has been before.
It may come to nothing, but sometimes it just takes everything lining up at the right moment.
With that being said, though, it would of course be possible to design a euro-style rallycross series that is less expensive than my examples.
We have a simpler version called "Folkrace", usually driven on shortened rallycross tracks. The idea behind that is to make it simple and easy by using a system where all cars are for sale after the event, at a set price (750 dollars now I think). Anyone is allowed to place a bid on any car and "winners" are drawn. Initial thinking was that it would prohibit people to spend too much money and time on a car you're not certain to keep. Soon people realized that if you place enough bids on your own car (or have family and friends doing so) the chance of winning it back is high enough to risk it. I couldn't stand loosing my car after a race but some people like it.
Folkrace is entertaining though :-) https://youtu.be/2CTIVPUTOL8
Gustaf
In reply to therealpinto :
That sounds like claimer rules for circle track. People are allowed to claim engines after a race.
Somewhere I read that racers generally spend 2-5x what the claim value is when building an engine.
