Why not MZR NC Miata engine into an NA?

oldeskewltoy wrote: LEEN is getting MUCH closer to having an adapter for the Y16M-D 6 speed(99-05). that would mean you could have 250 crank hp, 160 #/ft @ 9000(+ or -) rpm...... with a Toyota 7AGE I wonder what 9000 rpm in a Miata would feel and sound like and since there is no VVT or other such nonsense... a simple MS should be able to handle the management

9000 RPM doesn't sound like an engine that could be bolted in, then survive two-three years of non-stop track abuse without needing rod bearings, etc.

z31maniac wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote:

z31maniac wrote: Keith, any "build" would likely include cams, slight headwork, +1mm pistons with upped compression, aftermarket rods, and a standalone ECU for a proper 91 octane tune and the requisite intake/header/exhaust. Does the 160-170whp number sound reasonable with the above information? I figured that's approaching a $10k motor, but also figure an FM turbo, with the proper cooling setup for the radiator and oil cooler is basically $8k, plus a basic refresh on the current engine. The turbo would make more power, no doubt, but I think I'd really rather avoid that route. And I think a V8 Miata is just more power than I really want.

I'm not sure I agree with your math for the FM turbo. For the power levels we're discussing, you're talking about a Voodoo II. $3345. Add in a clutch, fans and a radiator and you're still under $5k. With the recipe you've posted, it really comes down to what you do with the cams. Bill Schenker's legal CSP engine was built with similar specs (including a "stock" cam) and it pulled a maximum of 160 rwhp on our dyno on 91 octane. That engine had an enormous amount of dyno time on it testing things like the length of the intake tract pre-TB. I'm one of the few people who has actually owned a 1.6 Voodoo II and a high compression 2.0 at the same time. They made pretty similar peak numbers, but the naturally aspirated mill had more torque. Definitely a different feel to each of them and I miss my high compression engine. But we pulled it apart for a refresh after a couple of seasons and it looked like a tired race motor. Wasn't showing any signs of low power or low oil pressure, but the bearings and rings were not long for this world.

If I went turbo, I'd go with your I'd go with the Hydra kit. So $5300, add in the clutch happy meal, we are at $6k. Crossflow, fans/shroud, oil cooler, we are now just over $7k..................add in a refresh of the tired 1.6 that's in the car, maybe another $1k. If I was going to go turbo, I'd go over the top to make sure it was going to be reliable. Reliability while being thrashed on is absolutely paramount. And all the cooling would be needed for our June/July/August track days here. So if I were going to swap a 1.8, I'd like to increase the power as much as reliably possible as well. Although with what I'm reading a late-model block, with I/H/E and proper tune would still be a HUGE step up over the 1.6 in there now. A 50% increase in power would be substantial.

For the record, there's an insurgence of people on Miataturbo.net switching their track cars to n/a because turbo cars can be a real pain in the ass.

Also add cost of updating Hydra down the road if there are updates that are useful. And the cost of tuning whatever EMS you end up with.

I also think that if you're a good bargain shopper (and you probably are, being on this website) that you can throw together a nice n/a 1.8 for fairly cheap. Just keep it simple.

Alternatively... just buy my Miata and put your suspension goodies on it.

z31maniac wrote:

oldeskewltoy wrote: LEEN is getting MUCH closer to having an adapter for the Y16M-D 6 speed(99-05). that would mean you could have 250 crank hp, 160 #/ft @ 9000(+ or -) rpm...... with a Toyota 7AGE I wonder what 9000 rpm in a Miata would feel and sound like and since there is no VVT or other such nonsense... a simple MS should be able to handle the management

9000 RPM doesn't sound like an engine that could be bolted in, then survive two-three years of non-stop track abuse without needing rod bearings, etc.

Not really an issue for the 4ages, or a few other motors that come to mind, actually.

93EXCivic wrote: I thought there was something about bolting a B2200 transmission to an F2T to get it in a RWD setup.

That sounds complicated. You can bolt an F2T/FE3 to a Miata 6spd in about... 20 minutes.

I would NOT support an F2T powered Miata as a track day car. Sounds like an awful idea. The motor is heavier, and due to power delivery, the car would probably impossible to drive.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

93EXCivic wrote: I thought there was something about bolting a B2200 transmission to an F2T to get it in a RWD setup.

That sounds complicated. You can bolt an F2T/FE3 to a Miata 6spd in about... 20 minutes. I would NOT support an F2T powered Miata as a track day car. Sounds like an awful idea. The motor is heavier, and due to power delivery, the car would probably impossible to drive.

But...

93EXCivic wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

93EXCivic wrote: I thought there was something about bolting a B2200 transmission to an F2T to get it in a RWD setup.

That sounds complicated. You can bolt an F2T/FE3 to a Miata 6spd in about... 20 minutes. I would NOT support an F2T powered Miata as a track day car. Sounds like an awful idea. The motor is heavier, and due to power delivery, the car would probably impossible to drive.

But...

LOL!!!

Put it this way... i consider MY F2T to be pretty mild.

While i'd like to see what it would do in a 500lb lighter RWD chassis, i don't think i'd like to drive it on the track unless it was a drifting competition.

However... i bet OP could get an FE3 in there with his budget pretty easily. 170 crank HP in stock form.

Jaynen wrote: Keith do you have any videos of your locost with that setup or build information on that engine? What kind of cost went into building a 1.6 like that NA vs normal FI?

Videos: http://www.cheapsportscar.net/videos.php. You can tell if it has the throttle bodies installed by looking to see if the filter is sticking out of the hood. I think they went on in late 2005. I think I've got some of these on YouTube as well, not sure.

Build information: Not much more than I've posted here. 11:1 Wiseco pistons, 1mm overbore, Carrillo H beam rods (A beams weren't out at the time), some light porting, custom header (I'll have to pull the specs, but I think they're 1.5" primaries that are 800 mm long), no real exhaust to speak of, Link ECU, TWM throttle bodies, Webcam 505 cams.

Cost: I rescued it from under a bench at FM, so cost was very low for me I've got about $10k in the whole car. You'll have to do the figuring yourself.

As for my 2.0 needing new bearings, that was after the original year of testing, the Targa plus at least two more years of constant use on track spinning to 8k or so. It was shown very little mercy and never flagged. We've gone to better bearings since that one was built, but the rings were looking tired. Basically, it was treated like a race engine so it should be maintained like a race engine. My BDA-owning friends were astounded. We never would have known there was a problem if we hadn't pulled the bottom end apart.

^Getting that kind of use out of an engine with that mileage seems perfectly acceptable. With 5 sessions yesterday, I did right at 100 track miles.

Getting 6k+ miles out of a motor with trackdays/auto-x would be quite a few years of service for me.

ALthough, I still think guys have convinced me to just do an 01+ VVT with bolt-ons and a tune.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: However... i bet OP could get an FE3 in there with his budget pretty easily. 170 crank HP in stock form.

FE3 would be a fairly cool swap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlbSBUmHgqI

F2T and Miata six-speed doesn't make sense; isn't that trans somewhat fragile? I don't think you want to take the F2T over 6k very often anyway, it just isn't a revy engine. I think there's real advantage in a wider ratio trans so the pilot is shifting less on the track.

Trackday F2T in a Miata? Maybe if you can easily get a four speed behind it, and breath on the thing a little, just shift between 2nd and 3rd perhaps? Nothing major, 250 to 300 lb/ft of torque into an A-833 OD sounds very cute to me (having no racing time so don't judge me too harshly on this, I'm not very serious about this 2nd paragraph).

pres589 wrote: F2T and Miata six-speed doesn't make sense; isn't that trans somewhat fragile? I don't think you want to take the F2T over 6k very often anyway, it just isn't a revy engine. I think there's real advantage in a wider ratio trans so the pilot is shifting less on the track. Trackday F2T in a Miata? Maybe if you can easily get a four speed behind it, and breath on the thing a little, just shift between 2nd and 3rd perhaps? Nothing major, 250 to 300 lb/ft of torque into an A-833 OD sounds very cute to me (having no racing time so don't judge me too harshly on this, I'm not very serious about this 2nd paragraph).

The 6 speed is the stronger one. I think it could handle my motor assuming i knew how to shift.

You can make an F2 rev pretty decently, 7000rpms seems to be pretty safe with very minor tweaks. I bounced the E36 M3 out of my redline all weekend... looking into ways to get it to 7000-7500 or so without going to megasquirt at the moment.

I'm with you, though... the big advantage of the F2 would be running an entire track in a gear or two.

The disadvantage is weight.

I'd suggest consideration one of two options.

1. Tune your existing engine, and "add lightness" wherever possible. this would provide a better power to weight ratio and better overall ( acceleration, braking, handling, mileage ) performance without the complexity and hassles of an engine swap. Think Ballistic battery, aftermarket seats, spare elimination, etc. etc.

2. Mazda 2.5 V6 KL-DE, or KL-ZE. Lightweight 200 hp stock with sweet sound.

Chet

^It's already had the AC/PS stuff removed (left the heater core for defrost and cold nice weather days), all the "trunk junk" is out. NO point in keeping the spare when it doesn't fit over the NB sport brakes. I even have the aluminum lug nuts to help shave weight! I need to get it on a scale for fun, but the I'm sure the frame rails/butterfly, HDHCDD/sport brakes have added back in everything that was removed.

Has aftermarket fixed back seats, but I suspect pretty close in weight to stock. Yanked all the insulation, but left in the carpet and door panels, again since I do drive it to work and on the weekends in nice weather.

The V6 presents just as many problems as the MZR or V8 swap.

Just a simple home fabricated tube with an AutoZone cone style air filter, and DynoShop straight exhaust on my '90 short-crank motor with 196k on it, bumped the hp to 112.8 at the rear wheels. That was pretty decent power for Spec Miata back when I first built it. And it was a completely original motor inside as well.

z31maniac wrote: ^It's already had the AC/PS stuff removed (left the heater core for defrost and cold nice weather days), all the "trunk junk" is out. NO point in keeping the spare when it doesn't fit over the NB sport brakes. I even have the aluminum lug nuts to help shave weight! I need to get it on a scale for fun, but the I'm sure the frame rails/butterfly, HDHCDD/sport brakes have added back in everything that was removed. Has aftermarket fixed back seats, but I suspect pretty close in weight to stock. Yanked all the insulation, but left in the carpet and door panels, again since I do drive it to work and on the weekends in nice weather. The V6 presents just as many problems as the MZR or V8 swap.

Yes and no. It's been done more than the MZR, and also has the power level you're looking for out of the box.

Is it easier to just do a V8 "kit" at this point? Probably.

I'd probably do the late 1.8 swap with bolt-on's. It's relatively low investment, meets your power goals and is an opportunity to find a low mileage and newer motor. It would readily accept a voodoo II in the future if I changed my mind on ze boooost.

racerfink wrote: Just a simple home fabricated tube with an AutoZone cone style air filter, and DynoShop straight exhaust on my '90 short-crank motor with 196k on it, bumped the hp to 112.8 at the rear wheels. That was pretty decent power for Spec Miata back when I first built it. And it was a completely original motor inside as well.

I'm not calling you out, but wow. That's about 20 hp from intake and exhaust....Maybe the dyno's a little off? IIRC, a strong stock-stock 1.6 dynos 92-95 at the wheels, based on the dyno....that's pretty impressive.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

z31maniac wrote: ^It's already had the AC/PS stuff removed (left the heater core for defrost and cold nice weather days), all the "trunk junk" is out. NO point in keeping the spare when it doesn't fit over the NB sport brakes. I even have the aluminum lug nuts to help shave weight! I need to get it on a scale for fun, but the I'm sure the frame rails/butterfly, HDHCDD/sport brakes have added back in everything that was removed. Has aftermarket fixed back seats, but I suspect pretty close in weight to stock. Yanked all the insulation, but left in the carpet and door panels, again since I do drive it to work and on the weekends in nice weather. The V6 presents just as many problems as the MZR or V8 swap.

Yes and no. It's been done more than the MZR, and also has the power level you're looking for out of the box. Is it easier to just do a V8 "kit" at this point? Probably.

Haven't the successful v6 swaps been dry-sump? No real easy or super-cheap way to do that. Even for an engine as sweet as the KL.

psteav wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

z31maniac wrote: ^It's already had the AC/PS stuff removed (left the heater core for defrost and cold nice weather days), all the "trunk junk" is out. NO point in keeping the spare when it doesn't fit over the NB sport brakes. I even have the aluminum lug nuts to help shave weight! I need to get it on a scale for fun, but the I'm sure the frame rails/butterfly, HDHCDD/sport brakes have added back in everything that was removed. Has aftermarket fixed back seats, but I suspect pretty close in weight to stock. Yanked all the insulation, but left in the carpet and door panels, again since I do drive it to work and on the weekends in nice weather. The V6 presents just as many problems as the MZR or V8 swap.

Yes and no. It's been done more than the MZR, and also has the power level you're looking for out of the box. Is it easier to just do a V8 "kit" at this point? Probably.

Haven't the successful v6 swaps been dry-sump? No real easy or super-cheap way to do that. Even for an engine as sweet as the KL.

I don't think so... but it sounds like i should double check.

If a V8 swap is too much power, just get a DOD motor and run it as a 4-cyl until you feel the need for speed!

DOD?

Displacement on demand

Ahhhh, never heard that before for forced induction (yikes that's a terrible sentence).

Only problem with that, if I found a 99+ motor cheap enough, I probably couldn't help myself to build one with overbored high-comp pistons and more aggressive cams.

z31maniac wrote: Ahhhh, never heard that before for forced induction (yikes that's a terrible sentence). Only problem with that, if I found a 99+ motor cheap enough, I probably couldn't help myself to build one with overbored high-comp pistons and more aggressive cams.

I believe the 2002maniac is referring to V8s that turn cylinders off "on demand". In other words, do the "simple" V8 swap, then use only half of it.

That's interesting, but we still end up with something very pricey. It appears a guy can do the VVT swap relatively inexpensive.

I already found a 'yard with a complete 60k 2001 engine for $700.

I have a feeling the wife would be upset if I started that so soon, she was up for summer next year, probably not this winter!