Spend some time with OE calibrator and you realize the aftermarket is way, way behind in terms of knowledge and resources. The reflashes are just people saying "if I change these tables I found, it seems to work okay and I won't touch anything else". It's not full understanding.
It is possible to reflash legally. We can do it on the ND Miata.
Also, CAN integration with the platform is a totally different thing.
alfadriver said:In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :
Exotic like alcohol? In my experience DI and alcohol is like duck to water. Other than the power limit problem from the mechanical pump flow limit.
But in terms of race cars, there are some other good options- IIRC, the small Buick 1.4 is a PFI turbo, right? And quite a few modern motors are PFI-DI, although I know that the DI is a big part of its peak power and torque ability.... It's not that there are no options- just fewer ones. And it's not as if the previous PFI versions of DI motors are terrible, too- many can even be boosted.
SOME are. They switched to direct injection at some point.
re: Keith: CAN integration is for those engine controllers that just won't play happily all by their lonesome. GM has been kind enough to have all inputs necessary for ECM/PCM function to go directly to the module, which is why they are so swappable. The only outliers are relatively unimportant things like cruise control function, which is handled by the PCM in some operating systems and the BCM by some others, with cruise inputs flowing through CAN. Not strictly necessary, in an engine and emissions control sort of way, but annoying to some swappers.
alfadriver said:In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :
Exotic like alcohol? In my experience DI and alcohol is like duck to water. Other than the power limit problem from the mechanical pump flow limit.
But in terms of race cars, there are some other good options- IIRC, the small Buick 1.4 is a PFI turbo, right? And quite a few modern motors are PFI-DI, although I know that the DI is a big part of its peak power and torque ability.... It's not that there are no options- just fewer ones. And it's not as if the previous PFI versions of DI motors are terrible, too- many can even be boosted.
Even the more common fuels are ending up with MTBE or nitro-deriviatives anymore unless there is a strict fuel check. We have enough issues with the "regular" injectors not having parts that swell and cut off the flow. Not sure if the DI injectors are methanol safe, but probably not good with some of these other chemicals. They do seem fine on E85 from what I have seen, and likely OK with more ethanol. Almost everything works better with DI + port but there are some packaging challenges, as well as control ones if you are using OEM ecu to control primary DI and using a piggyback for the port. I have done some of this on BMWs and you need to have a good tuner for both and they need to be able to talk to each other well. I haven't found someone I can work with well, draw your own conclusions ;)
The mechanical fuel pump and injector limits are there too, likely solved, not cheaply. Most of the engines I do are making 2-5x OEM levels so I tend to be operating on the outskirts of what most may be considering.
There are tons of tunes around for DI engines.
I drive a Solstice GXP with 2.0 DI engine. Stock power 260 bhp. GM offered a tune kit that bumped that up to 290 bhp and the torque went from 260 Tq to 340. I installed a larger impeller turbo and custom tune for 375 bhp. The Cobalt guys are nuts - 500 bhp out of a 2.0 is pretty common.
There are many tuners familiar with the DI injection set up and tuning to suit. Most use HP Tuners, plus one (Trifecta) that does their own system.
Old hat - Installed my first tune on mine in 2009.
Re:CAN.
One of my dream swaps is an RS3/TT-RS five cylinder engine, longitudinally, with a DSG trans from one of the A4 chassis based cars.
In theory, it might be doable. If it were a GM, I know the general idea of how to do it, with segment swaps and the like.
The DSG means that a standalone controller is really unlikely to work, because the TCM needs to be able to talk back to the ECM and request the rev matching that makes the VWAG twin clutch transmissions work so beautifully.
A 2.0t would work, of course, because there are a bazillion A4s and SUVs with that drivetrain, so the ECM and TCM already are calibrated for each other. Just need to bring over all the different electronic modules that need to talk to each other to allow it to run. (Which might be nice, having some of those modern conveniences like central locking and one touch windows) Buuuuut... as a four cylinder, it doesn't have The Howl.
Htg already makes a standalone tcu for dsg. Its my winter project. Can do all that via can
And Link makes a GDI standalone ecu for a little more budget option, as long as you're trying to control 4 pistons or less.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Right, being able to deal with CAN is important for swaps. I know this very well :) But it's got nothing to do with direct injection other than the fact that the two technologies saw heavy adoption at about the same time.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:Re:CAN.
One of my dream swaps is an RS3/TT-RS five cylinder engine, longitudinally, with a DSG trans from one of the A4 chassis based cars.
In theory, it might be doable. If it were a GM, I know the general idea of how to do it, with segment swaps and the like.
The DSG means that a standalone controller is really unlikely to work, because the TCM needs to be able to talk back to the ECM and request the rev matching that makes the VWAG twin clutch transmissions work so beautifully.
A 2.0t would work, of course, because there are a bazillion A4s and SUVs with that drivetrain, so the ECM and TCM already are calibrated for each other. Just need to bring over all the different electronic modules that need to talk to each other to allow it to run. (Which might be nice, having some of those modern conveniences like central locking and one touch windows) Buuuuut... as a four cylinder, it doesn't have The Howl.
When I was working at audi last year (maybe the year before?), Achtuning called down because they thought we had an RS3 on the lot they were hoping to borrow so they could pull the ECM tune. They were doing an 07k swapped vw alltrak. I know that's transverse but it is VAG DSG. I imagine with the right coding you could do an 07k b8 or b9. Might be harder to go older than that though.
I have a 1973 opel gt that doesn't have any canbus. I'd love a Ford or Chevy 1.5 L turbo Ecoboost r cylinder engine. They have stock 176 HP and 203 ft/lbs of torque.
I'd love to find a budget friendly ECU without any canbus for one of these gdi engines. I'm curious what they can be bumped up to stock and what they could do with a swap to a twin scroll turbo.
The engine bay if the opel gt is VERY small which is why im looking for the lightest, most powerful motor so I don't have to cut the body.
Link, motec, and others are over 3000 and then I need to pay for a tune. I cant find anyone that can remove everything except controlling the engine, turbo, and fuel pump. Normal ignition w/o immobilizer, nothing else.
I'm even considering a Ducati motor or BMW from motorcycle for those that don't know. Di is destroying my dream. My birthday is on the weekend and thee is no hope of driving it to my surprise party. :(
You can swap without the CAN. There are just some things you can't do without it, like have your radio turn the volume down when you come to a stop. I've swapped CAN computers into older cars.
Note that the 1.4 GM engine is port injected, not DI. And it's a great little motor.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:randedge said:And I guess for those who feel like prognosticating, will it ever get figured out the way the aftermarket has mastered multi port injection? As in, will there ever be a time when there are aftermarket direct injectors controlled by aftermarket ECU, supplied by aftermarket high pressure pumps? Is it in the best interest of these companies to develop it considering the looming electrification and hybridization of everything?
That said, high pressure pumps are usually mechanically driven rather than electrically, which is going to make them more difficult to build as generic aftermarket units because there's no standard mechanical driver interface to bolt them to.
Fun Fact.
For the Civic Type R, Hondata has an upgraded high pressure fuel pump for bigger turbo setups. For really big power setups, they even make their own camshaft to make their pump spin even faster
That's got to be higher lift, not faster. There's gotta be one "pump" per injection. DI is weird that way, the pump is basically just a positive-displacement piston that pushes the fuel through the injector that's open (as opposed to the port injection mindset of "here's a reservoir of fuel, the injector leaks it into the intake manifold") and the pressure solenoid is timed to bleed off pressure during the right part of the stroke. That's why cam timing to the degree is important to know.
An engine with the appropriate camshaft out of time will set fuel pressure codes, because the pump stroke happens at the wrong point. It doesn't take very many degrees out of time to cause this.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
FWIW, the pump strokes don't have to match. We did a 4 lobe pump cam for a V6. But having them equal does make the control a little easier.
Also, more strokes can be bad at high RPM, since it's a positive displacement pump.
But the total peak of everything is limited by the mechanical pump ability when running DI only.
As for the greater thought of aftermarket systems doing DI- there are so many hurdles to DIY DI, I still very much doubt it will happen. It's not just the control of the pump and injectors, but add tuning the fuel pump control and really figuring out the DI timing, let alone doing live injection adjustments while the pump is working.... It really took a dyno some real time to get all of that right.
Look into these guys:
https://xtreme-di.com/
Uwe, the founder, was a Bosch engineer for a long time doing diesel injection then GDI then started this company. He's got more insight into the hardware and tuning together than just about anybody.
Have put a lot of di engines on port just due to swap simplicity. If there is a port manifold available its pretty simple.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Forgive me for my DI pump related insolence sir
iansane said:In reply to z31maniac :
I don't disagree with you but on the budget side of things, getting an ECM and harness with a junkyard engine is a lot easier and cheaper than going standalone. The standalone options are few and pricey. I'm doing some initial planning on a toyota v8 swap into an older car and it would be much cooler/more powerful to run a DI engine than the older nonDI engine but controlling it will prove to be difficult.
IDK. By the time you buy a ECU and harness AND tuning software with credits you're getting dangerously close to some stand alones. That's what keeps me from buying hptuners. Its a big chunk of just going to a more capable unit that will give me way better data logging and the ability to do things like run a digital dash. I guess if the stock tuning works for you, you can skip all the extras.
In reply to theruleslawyer :
WRT DI, a "stock tune" is so much better to start with than most aftermarket tuners are capable of doing. Let alone capability of the software. If you *really* want a DI engine, the easy button, by far, is using an OEM set up and using a stock tune to start with.
If you want to know the effect good tuning can have on DI, drive a 2016 and 2019 Miata back to back and pay attention to the low midrange. You can really feel the effects of the new injection strategies - I think they went from dual event to triple event in that range.
OE calibrators are so far ahead of most of the aftermarket it's not even funny. We've just been working with an OE level calibrator for our NC turbo kit (not direct injection, but it's a reflash) and the difference in driveability, engine safety and emissions compared to the other tuners out there is dramatic.
The big thing about reflashing is that you can keep all the hard work in the corners of the map where all the real work is done. You just change what needs to be done. It might cost the same as a standalone, but you get millions of dollars of OE calibration as part of the deal.
As for datalogging, that's where CAN comes in. Get the definitions and you can log out the wazoo. GM publishes their CAN protocols so you know exactly what you're listening to, or you can do some reverse engineering. Want to know exactly when the turn indicators went on, or how much steering torque is being applied along with the level of assist and steering angle? It's probably all in there, especially on a car that's a decade old or less. Engine related stuff is very verbose.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
The mid 2017 up 1.4L Turbo is DI, the '18 Cruze I had was DI, couldn't miss those large injectors next to the ignition coils. Early ones were still port FI.
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