“Winter” vs “Snow” tires

Hi all, this is in regard to my IMCA Sport Compact car. Yes the one I have not found . . . YET.

I am fairly familiar with things round and black, but being a south western guy and never having had to deal with “winter” or “Snow” tires I know pretty much nothing about them – hence this posting.

IMCA’s rules state in part; must be “OEM DOT” and “No racing, mud or snow tires”. So, being simple about it, any tire that says it is a “Snow” tire is verboten. But (there’s always a but huh?) do “snow” tires say on them that they are snow tires? Also, are “winter” tires the same / similar / different than “snow” tires? The rules do not specifically forbid “winter” tires.

Do I even want a “winter” tire on a dirt oval (clay to be more specific)?

Also, I do have in my mind “rally” tires as a possible option. But I have questions on those. 1) Are they “race” or “winter” or “Snow” tires? 2) Are they marked as such? 3) Are they marked as DOT tires?

Thank you

In reply to L5wolvesf :

“Snow” tires typically come in two flavors: 1.) anything M&S(mud & snow) rated, which is generally slightly inferior as a snow tire TBH, or 2.) actual snow tires - these have the snowflake symbol on the sideway to show they’re rated for actual snow use. 

Mu guess is both of those categories would be excluded by the rules. 

Where do All-Terrain tires fall?

You will find that "Winter Only" tires might be called snow tires or winter tires.  The trick is, a winter only tire doesn't have a treadwear rating.

I'm going to guess you don't want mud or snows, that the rule is to prevent track damage.  It's a novice class and people probably showed up thinking racing on dirt required off-road tires and tore up the surface.  If you look at the tires on most dirt oval cars the tread is not terribly aggressive and they put down plenty of power.

I have Vredestein Quatrac 5 on my car. They're all seasons that have the "three peak mountain" severe snow rating, but are usable in summer and have a UTQG 400 rating.

Are they snow tires under that rule? Dunno. If they look for UTQG, no. If they look for a snow rating, yes. Tire rack classes them "Grand Touring All-Season."

We did a rallycross on a dirt oval in Fayatteville, NC.

Rally tires sucked compared to street tires. The packed clay surface was grippier than pavement. Using all-seasons, I was getting some tire screech on the tighter turns. Yes, really- see below.

Note that if that track is wet, it's like driving on ice, though.

 

having played tennis on clay, I can see where packed clay would be perfect for normal street tyres. Never tried it in the rain, I will believe you when you say it is like driving on ice

Rally tires are not DOT marked and typically say "For Competition Use Only."

In reply to Brett_Murphy :

God, that looks like fun!

I looked up IMCA sport compact. It's a mini stock class claimer class. A good all season or summer/performance tire is what you want. 

When I was ran that class on dirt most of my competitors tried to mimic what the big boys (who used race tires) were doing and ran low pressure in their tires looking for traction. I ran autocross type pressures and passed them in the turns.

Many years ago, I read an article in a dirt track magazine about surface condition changes of dirt tracks. If I remember correctly, the article stated 7 conditions as the track surface changed through the night.. Starting out with sloppy wet and going to dry slick, the track changes depending on amount of water used at the beginning of the night, sun, temperature/humidity and amount of racing. 

I used 2 different sets of tires. First set was an aggressive tread all season for packing the track and the heat races. A 2nd set was the softest compound worn summer tire I could find. Different tire sizes were used for stagger. I also changed tire pressure depending on the track we were at. Along with that was setting the the alignment and suspension for the track so the car wanted to turn left. You have to be creative when interpreting the rule book in this class. 

The most important component is learning how to drive on the different surfaces. Sloppy/wet heat races require less throttle so the car will hook up. Tacky conditions requires the most power, while dry slick requires less power and more finesse driving.

Have fun

Brett_Murphy said:

We did a rallycross on a dirt oval in Fayatteville, NC.

Rally tires sucked compared to street tires. The packed clay surface was grippier than pavement. Using all-seasons, I was getting some tire screech on the tighter turns. Yes, really- see below.

Note that if that track is wet, it's like driving on ice, though.

That's what we'd get in Ohio on the clay sites we'd use.  The course would develop a blue groove and you would get a lot of tire squeal.

For dirt ovals, I still want to try a set of A7s.  In the dry they should rock, in dust and wet nothing has grip so no sense giving up dollars to pick up dimes.

Pete Gossett said:

In reply to L5wolvesf :

“Snow” tires typically come in two flavors: 1.) anything M&S(mud & snow) rated, which is generally slightly inferior as a snow tire TBH, or 2.) actual snow tires - these have the snowflake symbol on the sideway to show they’re rated for actual snow use.

Mu guess is both of those categories would be excluded by the rules.

Given that description that is likely

ebonyandivory said:

Where do All-Terrain tires fall?

Good question. My first thought was, are any made small enough. I would be looking at tires in the range of 195 to 215 /60s (can’t go smaller than 60s), on 15 or 16 inch wheels. I don’t think that is a thing in A/T tires.

EvanB said:

Rally tires are not DOT marked and typically say "For Competition Use Only."

That, along with the other comment, makes the Rally tires decision easy.

Mike said:

I have Vredestein Quatrac 5 on my car. They're all seasons that have the "three peak mountain" severe snow rating, but are usable in summer and have a UTQG 400 rating.

Are they snow tires under that rule? Dunno. If they look for UTQG, no. If they look for a snow rating, yes. Tire rack classes them "Grand Touring All-Season."

Interesting about the Vredesteins and what TireRack says. I could bring a copy of their description with me in case there is a question.

Wally said:

I'm going to guess you don't want mud or snows, that the rule is to prevent track damage.  It's a novice class and people probably showed up thinking racing on dirt required off-road tires and tore up the surface.  If you look at the tires on most dirt oval cars the tread is not terribly aggressive and they put down plenty of power.

On a basic level what I want is to figure out the best possible type of tire(s), within the rules, for the condition(s). I’m told some, maybe many, people just run “the cheapest Walmart tire available”.

I can’t say if the rule is about track damage or not. At the track I’m planning on running the inside grooves, at the entrance to turn 1 and 3, are more like ruts. The Sport Compacts tend to avoid that. Also, I don’t think the SCs are going to make that much of a difference. SCs are 4-cylinder FWD that you are not allowed to do much with (legally). So there isn’t a lot of power sliding into a turn kind of action happening. The other classes seem to be far more capable of tearing up the track.

My guess would be that the tire rules are geared toward making the class more “affordable” (vs. the cost of dirt race tires) and making it easier to police the tire rule.

It is looking like an “all season” tire is the direction to go.

Brett_Murphy said:

We did a rallycross on a dirt oval in Fayatteville, NC.

Rally tires sucked compared to street tires. The packed clay surface was grippier than pavement. Using all-seasons, I was getting some tire screech on the tighter turns. Yes, really- see below.

Note that if that track is wet, it's like driving on ice, though.
 

Thank you for that good to see and know

Suprf1y said:

I looked up IMCA sport compact. It's a mini stock class claimer class. A good all season or summer/performance tire is what you want. 

When I was ran that class on dirt most of my competitors tried to mimic what the big boys (who used race tires) were doing and ran low pressure in their tires looking for traction. I ran autocross type pressures and passed them in the turns.

IMCA Sport Compact, and a couple others, are almost stock (as in factory). Ministocks are usually allowed a number of significant modifications. I ran a MS at Tucson for a season and the car had very few factory parts.

Using autoX tire pressures is what I've heard from a couple folks. In part to keep from rolling the tire off the bead. Thank you

outasite said:

Many years ago, I read an article in a dirt track magazine about surface condition changes of dirt tracks. If I remember correctly, the article stated 7 conditions as the track surface changed through the night.. Starting out with sloppy wet and going to dry slick, the track changes depending on amount of water used at the beginning of the night, sun, temperature/humidity and amount of racing. 

I used 2 different sets of tires. First set was an aggressive tread all season for packing the track and the heat races. A 2nd set was the softest compound worn summer tire I could find. Different tire sizes were used for stagger. I also changed tire pressure depending on the track we were at. Along with that was setting the the alignment and suspension for the track so the car wanted to turn left. You have to be creative when interpreting the rule book in this class. 

The most important component is learning how to drive on the different surfaces. Sloppy/wet heat races require less throttle so the car will hook up. Tacky conditions requires the most power, while dry slick requires less power and more finesse driving.

Have fun

I would love to read that article I can't seem to find similar thing online. Thank you for the info.