Can I use a port like this for the o2 sensor? Or do I need to go further down stream?
Actually I have 4 places like this to choose from (4 manifolds) maybe I could read all 4 to ensure the 3 cylinders each is connected to are running the same?
I would definitely go further downstream. You would primarily be picking up exhaust flow from a single cylinder at that location.
In theory you could monitor each cylinder individually, but tuning fuel trim for each cylinder individually isn't practical, so the benefit would be minor, It would effectively enable you to diagnose if you had an injector or plug issue within a cylinder without pulling a plug to read it. It's not worth the cost or effort.
The wideband sensor packages I have used all recommended minimum 22-24" downstream from the exhaust valves. You can go closer but without the expensive circuitry the OEMs use to manage heat, you will cook sensors on a regular basis.
Narrowband sensors are a lot more tolerant, but they also are mostly useless for anything but keeping a converter happy.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Since it will have a E85 diet, I'll follow your advice.. Thanks.
In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :
Thanks, I'm switching to a Mega Squirt Gold which in theory I could tune each cylinder for. But oops, 12 wide band O2 sensors? Nah, Maybe two. But that will put them where the only access is from underneath.
My poor boy way of tuning for each cylinder is to take the temp of each one with an infrared digital thermometer. But I can't take temps on the track. I guess the average for each side will have to do. I'll take them on the dyno.
In reply to frenchyd :
In theory you can tune each cylinder, but tuning the fuel trim for each cylinder via injector pulse is just not going to happen. A wide band for each cylinder bank, that's standard practice.
In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :
I've a lot to learn about tuning for racing and working with E85 on an EFI system.
Maybe I'm reaching too far at my age. With carbs it's would be straight forward for me. However I can see the advantage of changing mixtures with a key stroke instead of stopping, taking the carbs apart, physically altering them and then starting all over again.
I hope not. I'd really not like to think I'm past it.
And you can have the tuner ride along with you and make on-the-fly adjustments. That alone is pretty epic.
The difficulty I'm having right now is to find a tuner willing to work with me on a V12
I only work on Japanese cars or Only American V8 s , Or I don't work on those.
Am I completely wrong or are the rules different for all 4 stroke engines except 12 cylinders?
Isn't the goal the same air to fuel ratio with E85 on 4-6-8-12 cylinders? Don't you advance timing until power falls off then retard however much you need to feel conservative?
frenchyd said:The difficulty I'm having right now is to find a tuner willing to work with me on a V12
make alfadriver an offer. he's retired now. ;-)
In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
I intend to pick his brains ( and pay for it). But getting him here? That's going to be too expensive.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:frenchyd said:The difficulty I'm having right now is to find a tuner willing to work with me on a V12
make alfadriver an offer. he's retired now. ;-)
Now that I'm no longer with DIYAutoTune, working on an MS3 Gold would no longer be a conflict of interest. Travel might still be the same sort of expense issue, though.
In reply to MadScientistMatt :
OK let me ask you this. Am I far off. Isn't dyno tuning just a matter of getting the fueling right and timing?
Does it matter if it's a V12 or a 4 cylinder?
You are right, there is no difference besides more injectors. Assuming the hardware can drive them, and assuming the tuner is familiar with the ECU, no difference. For a tuner to say "no" is concerning because it indicates that he doesn't understand as much about tuning as he should.
I realized that I don't know if you're talking about taking the car in to be tuned in a shop, or having a guy come to you. For the initial tuning, having it on a dyno or roller is far more convenient for the tuner - less convenient for you. I had to tow my car 100 miles each way (uphill!) to a shop but it was totally worth it.
If you're okay with "remote tuning", there are people who can work with you on that, much back and forth, but very doable. He gives you an initial map based on what you tell him, you load it, drive, then send him the logs, and he adjusts accordingly. Rinse and repeat.
Now, to get the car to idle like an OEM vehicle, to do partial throttle like OEM, and to not stall coming up to a light, now that can take Many Hours of both garage time and test drives, but you can do that part of the tuning on your own. The important part is setting both mixture and timing, that should be left to a pro - at least I did.
Kb58 summed it up. Bigger engines aren't much extra challenge, other than finding enough I/O if you want sequential injection. Not sure the gold box can do this on a V12.
Otherwise, tuning a big, naturally smooth engine is easier than a small engine with fewer cylinders. A 5 liter engine will barely notice if you've turned on the A/C. A 1.6 Miata? There's a lot less torque to spare.
In reply to kb58 :
This is a race only car. As long as it's rich enough I don't care how lumpy or poor it performs below 4500. Although I'll spend enough time sorting it out before I go on the dyno that most likely It'll be decent.
I'll get big enough injectors, fuel lines, and a decent fuel pump to provide fuel for 6 liters (366 inches) running E85 and a pair of T4 turbo's. I'll start out very conservative with 6-10 psi. And max about 12 psi.
The camshafts will not be that big of duration and probably only around .430 lift at the valve. ( about the max the stock cams will regrind to).
This isn't going to be a 1000 hp drag race special. I'll work up to it very slowly watching temps, water, intake air, exhaust manifold, back pressure, If I start seeing signs of distress I'll back off and live with whatever I get.
Road racing is about power at the RPM you're geared for. I'm shooting between 4500-6500 the short stroke keeps piston speed way down so They raced at 8000 rpm for 24 hours using that lousy French gas with about 85 octane.
The one weakness I have is I can't use intercoolers., I'm hoping the alcohol in the fuel is enough to avoid detonation. If I have to I'll supplement the E85 with WW fluid. 30% methanol 70% water. I'll take the power loss to prevent problems.
The ignition dry fires one cylinder while it's firing the other. So 6 coils 12 plugs. That may require some very good coils.
The Gold box can handle both the E85 and the WW Fluid while the unit I have can't.
Sequential timing a 12 cylinder requires more IOs than are available. Even with the gold box. There is a unit that has more and can be programmed but it's much more complex and I'm just not comfortable enough to tackle it. Besides Jaguar V12 started out using 3 VW rabbit units ganged together so the Mega Squirt is a major advancement.
frenchyd said:The difficulty I'm having right now is to find a tuner willing to work with me on a V12
I have literally offered this multiple times on this forum. Maybe you just can't find a tuner that works for free?
The O2 is easy, two (at least) controllers. One for each bank. Output wires to your ecu. Done.
In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :
I'm sorry . A couple of posts above I wrote I intended to use you ( and pay for it). However I doubted I can afford to bring you to Minneapolis and stand over me on the chassis Dyno.
I have remote tuned cars as far as the Philippines, it's not that hard.
In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :
I need someone with a 3 day beard dope slapping me for touching the wrong key on the lap top. It's how I learned originally
I was 14 when I got to use the big tune up wall of instrument's O scope in the middle showing each cylinder firing, dwell, Amps from Generators, engine mixture richness, cranking amps, battery charge, And as many instruments as there were the Duesenburg I was tuning had more.
That's back in the day we would pull spark plugs and clean them in the little sandblaster on the wall, file them, and set the gap before putting them back in. Same with points. The generator brushes were checked and the bearings got a squirt or two of oil. Even distributors had a place to oil the advance mechanism. As did water pumps. You filled up the chassis lube tank with a combination of grease and 90 at oil. The car greased itself. .
In reply to frenchyd :
You need to stop being afraid of breaking something and just do it.
I'm betting that you already have a decent spark profile to get the engine to run- in old Alfa catalogs, they used to show various advance curves for various engines and modified distributors. That has to exist for your engine. I used that to get my turbo Alfa motor running 20 years ago for the challenge.
As for fuel, the only danger you have to really break things is if you hydrolock it. And for that, as long as the injectors are not on when the engine isn't running, it's really hard to put enough fuel in it with running injectors to fill the crevice volume enough to lock it up as the engine is spinning.
Start with a basic calibration from an engine with a similar cam profile, and it should start and run- the multiple MS specialists who have offered help should know where to look for that. If you are in a place that has wi-fi, the odds of you being able to have someone remotely look over your shoulders is very high. It's the same process that scammers use to get access to your computer- remote access.
From there, take data, post it someplace, and pay the person to give you feedback.
In reply to alfadriver :
Ah!?!? That's how it's done now? No guy with a 3 day beard and a cigarette dangling from the corner of his mouth ready to dope slap me when I make a mistake?
Almost seems anticlimactic. Out of curiosity how do they keep a perpetual 3 day beard? It seems like you'd have to shave it and at least for a day he'd be clean shaven. That or it would grow into a beard. ;-)
ps I'm not worried about breaking anything, I'm more worried I'll connect the green wire with the white stripe where the blue wire with the red stripe wants to be and the $800 ECU will melt and disappear in a cloud of smoke taking with it my new lap top. ( Yes, I was trained by the US Navy to fix electronics. ). That or the Whitworth electrons will offend those French metrics and I'll start WW3
The only mistake you can make is telling who is configuring it wrong goals/hardware/and general troubleshooting. I have a perpetual 3 day beard but don't smoke. This stuff is really not that hard for someone that has done it more than a thousand times, as much as you think a v12 may make it harder (as Matt mentioned it's easier with more cyls). I am remote tuning a 911 6 with itbs and the customer doesn't want to add spark control. THAT is hard.
In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :
How long is your arm? Can you dope slap me from Pa? Seriously, as I get closer I'll make a cohesive list of questions and goals. Plus sources for various items.
I'm thinking of using the newer distributor less ignition system but then I have to find a source of heavy duty coils with dual plug leads. ( it dry fires one while live firing it's counterpart )
I can hire a local to smack you pretty easily, I have sent some before for "collections." 
Depending on the ecu you can just use COP setup or fire them in wired pairs. I have done this with LS coils with luck before, some of the VW ones can't be. This is where I'd choose a MS3 Pro over a Goldbox... but you could do a few Ford 4/6cyl coils, 3 quadsparks and do it as well.
Or am I not understanding and you have 2plugs/cyl AND 12cyls?
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