Yet another RallyX Car Question

Hey folks, been lurking around this place for the past couple weeks since I had the opportunity to head down and observe the Mid-Atlantic RallyX Regionals earlier this month and made the decision that yeah, this is something that I want to do. While there's plenty of older threads on this topic that made for interesting reading, I wanted to ask some targeted questions to help guide me as I surf CL and look at cars trying to narrow my choices down - planning to start in the stock class to get experience and work my way from there. Not interested in AWD and leaning towards FWD due to vehicle availability + what seems like easy of learning for a new (to dirt) driver.

One of the big limitations I've run into in older cars (like my E30 'vert I bought two months ago) is that the footwells tend to be tiny, and I have huge and wide feet. As much as I'd love to bounce a second E30 through the dirt, my feet literally brush in the smallest shoes I can wear when on the clutch/brake. So that's a major point for me - a fairly open footwell. It would also be nice to have a car that's 1992 or older from a VA registration perspective since this would be a 3rd car and the ability to do liability only + antique plates would make it cheap to keep in the driveway. I'm also new to this whole manual driving thing, so a car that's pretty forgiving in that aspect would help me get practice in before my first event (I actually bought a 2005 Saabaru/WRX with the intention of doing SA before I did more research and actually tried to drive the thing - that was a poor decision).

Cars I've been considering in a 2-3kish budget based on regional (DC Metro) availability:

-(older)CRX/Civic. I've seen these in other regions but not so much around here based on the archived results I read through. There's a couple of decent looking ones around here, but I'm not sure if they have the space for me or the durability in the common track set-ups in the region. -Early 00's Protégé/Focus. There's a lovely 03 ES Protégé on CL for ~2k right now, and a couple of Zetec powered Focus sedans in that same price category. I'd assume both are pretty easy to drive, but I think I've read that the Protégé suspensions can be fragile? -80s VW. I looked at an '86 16v Scirocco because why not, and while it seemed to be a great powertrain the amount of work the owner had needed to do to it (and still remained to be done!) was somewhat terrifying compared to my E30 of the same timeframe. On the flipside I've seen quite a few Mk2 Jettas/Golfs in rally and the like, and the seats and space seemed to be quite nice. Are these cars as much of a constant stream of fixes as they seem?

Sorry for the wall of text! Also, I know some of the DC area guys are on here a lot - if any of you happen to see this, is there an area forum or the like? I checked out the SCCA regional site but the forum there seems...sparsely used. Also if anybody is interested in 2005 Saabaru with a bunch of expensive replacements done let me know .

Stretch that budget a little bit and do a fly-n-drive in Project SVT Focus.

"a little bit" he says .

The Focus does seem like a robust platform with plenty of aftermarket (and manufacturer) support. I guess there's plenty of room to grow it if I want to move up classes as well, but no SVTs anywhere around here and I'm not sure a trip to Florida is in the cards.

Whether or not FWD is an easier starting point will depend on what you are currently comfortable with- if you want to fit right in and have lots of friendly advice and probably free parts in a 2wd car in DC region, you want an e30. Find the WDCR Rallycross Facebook page for local discussion.

If I were looking for a starter RallyX car in your area, here are some craigslist picks:
e30 (the standard for DC)
CRX (almost too nice!)
Miata (spend remaining budget on hardtop)
Old RWD Corolla (if you want something cool as hell but less competitive)
Civic Si
Celica

Honestly, for any car you get, just be ready to go through, fix the little stuff, and put fresh shocks and suspension bushings on it- then mount up some snow tires and rallycross the hell out of it for a season before you do anything else. You may very well find out you want an entirely different car after a season or so, and if not you'll hopefully be comfortable enough with what you're driving to know specifically what needs improvement.

Check out my thread on here and see if you get any ideas.

I do drive through the DC area a few times a year, so it wouldn't be too big of a deal to deliver.

Shoot me an email at tom@grassrootsmotorsports.com if you're interested.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ wrote: Whether or not FWD is an easier starting point will depend on what you are currently comfortable with- if you want to fit right in and have lots of friendly advice and probably free parts in a 2wd car in DC region, you want an e30. Find the WDCR Rallycross Facebook page for local discussion. If I were looking for a starter RallyX car in your area, here are some craigslist picks: e30 (the standard for DC) CRX (almost too nice!) Miata (spend remaining budget on hardtop) Old RWD Corolla (if you want something cool as hell but less competitive) Civic Si Celica Honestly, for any car you get, just be ready to go through, fix the little stuff, and put fresh shocks and suspension bushings on it- then mount up some snow tires and rallycross the hell out of it for a season before you do anything else. You may very well find out you want an entirely different car after a season or so, and if not you'll hopefully be comfortable enough with what you're driving to know specifically what needs improvement.

agree with Chris. This area is not heavy on FWD other than a few guys. The easy buttons here for help, spare parts, support, and knowledge in 2WD cars in this area are in the BMW (e30/e36) and Volvo (240) and Miata areas. Plus, RWD is simply more fun (biased opinion). Also in my opinion cars like e30s are tougher, cheaper, and less likely to break than many newer FWD cars (als much easier to work on). Also cheap to buy, most are pre-1992.

For pedal position, two things to think of:

1. on an e30, if you take the carpet out there is more space in the box to some degree.

2. if you're in mod class, you could do an aftermarket pedal assembly (wilwood, etc).

3. Buy some driving shoes (sparco, alpinestars, etc) to mitigate big feet/big shoes!

For FWD, the go-tos are older Civic, CRX, Celica, Focus, Sentra SE-R, and a few others.

As Chris noted, the DC rally, rallycross, and rallysprint facebook page is very active, so join up and check that out.

me, Chris, and Nick Drymalski have localbuild threads here on GRM, for more (lots) of info.

Locally, there's a first-gen Neon that usually winds up in the top 5 overall.

Seriously, though, starting off in SF is a good idea. Plenty of cars available and pretty much anything you throw some snow tires on will be a great learning tool.

If you're tall sit in prospective choices with a helmet to make sure you fit well.

I liked my Saturn SL2 for bouncing around on dirt roads. With your budget get 2 of em

Thanks guys! I'll check the facebook group out (I guess it might actually get me to use facebook).

I'll have to give the E30 another think, I loved seeing the armada of them out on the course earlier this month. I saw a decent looking '91 318 sedan floating around on CL that looked like a possibility.

Tom - sent you an email, let me know if it doesn't make it through as sometimes the work filters eat them.

I have size 15 feet and I understand your pain. I have not yet found a car I can left foot brake in.

A couple other things people haven't noted.

• Get a car with an LSD or the ability to get a cheap one.
• You will need to downshift into first at speed on some courses and not all transmissions will let you do that.
• Independent rear suspension is generally more competitive than a solid axle, even on FWD
• The Focus ZX3 is the car I most often see broken at an event

That's interesting on the Focus, is it fragility or just wear items do you think? Reading through the GSM build posts it looks like a combination of very rough courses and mileage causing most of their issues.

The Lsd is a good point and one I've been keeping in mind. It seems like the Miata is about the only car available for decades that has had a pervasive stock availability of them. I found it pretty interesting that after the E30 BMW switched to making them available on basically just the M cars.

Yeah, the Focus broke a lot, but I blame most of it on horrible rough courses and high mileage. On the bright side, now it's basically all new!

FWIW, I'm 6' tall and wear a size 12 shoe, and I fit fine in the Focus with no issues, even with the sunroof and a helmet on.

The GRM focus had a mind of it's own until they finally tracked down whatever weird electrical problem it had. We started side bets on how many cylinders it would end the day with. Other ones seem to go through more axles than I expect. That is probably more driver than car though.

BMW had clutch based diffs available for most models until traction control became standard in the late 90s. They are all swappable with reasonable effort between E30, E28, E36, and Z3s.

Honda Civic Si had torsen diffs on certain generations but I am not an expert there. The early Nissan Sentra Se-r and certain Dodge Neons had them too.

Volvo 240 - enough room for the Hulk to drive!

Cblais19 wrote: That's interesting on the Focus, is it fragility or just wear items do you think? Reading through the GSM build posts it looks like a combination of very rough courses and mileage causing most of their issues. The Lsd is a good point and one I've been keeping in mind. It seems like the Miata is about the only car available for decades that has had a pervasive stock availability of them. I found it pretty interesting that after the E30 BMW switched to making them available on basically just the M cars.

We have two Focuses (Foci?) that run regularly with us. Both are pretty quick. Both break something every event or two (usually having to do with axles, motor mounts, etc). And we don't run particularly rough courses in DC, really.

e30 LSDs are easy to find in about 5 different ratios and not very expensive. I have two spares sitting in my garage right now (plus one on the car). E36s in many cases have easily-available LSDs as well (plus there is some crossover from e30 parts in that respect).

ojannen wrote: The GRM focus had a mind of it's own until they finally tracked down whatever weird electrical problem it had. We started side bets on how many cylinders it would end the day with. Other ones seem to go through more axles than I expect. That is probably more driver than car though. BMW had clutch based diffs available for most models until traction control became standard in the late 90s. They are all swappable with reasonable effort between E30, E28, E36, and Z3s. Honda Civic Si had torsen diffs on certain generations but I am not an expert there. The early Nissan Sentra Se-r and certain Dodge Neons had them too.

and sadly, torsen-based diffs are pretty much worthless and are killed easily in rallycross, IMO.

I'd look at an E36 since they're much more available then E30s, but consensus seems to be that they're far more fragile especially in the subframe mount area right?

I'd love to check a 240 out - but the length on them would seem to be a significant detriment on a cone course and all the running ones in a 200 mile radius are auto or $5k+ for clean stick shifts.

irish44j wrote: and sadly, torsen-based diffs are pretty much worthless and are killed easily in rallycross, IMO.

What happens to the torsen diffs? Do they stop locking or do they explode?

What do the FWD guys use for diffs? Are all the fast guys on clutch type or welded diffs?

ojannen wrote:

irish44j wrote: and sadly, torsen-based diffs are pretty much worthless and are killed easily in rallycross, IMO.

What happens to the torsen diffs? Do they stop locking or do they explode? What do the FWD guys use for diffs? Are all the fast guys on clutch type or welded diffs?

A torsen diff basically becomes an open diff when lifted off the ground.....which happens in rallycross. They don't explode, they just eventually become full-time open diffs and/or full-time seized/locked.

irish44j wrote: and sadly, torsen-based diffs are pretty much worthless and are killed easily in rallycross, IMO.

I'll let the Englands know

Chris Greenhouse ran a Torsen type diff in his Neon at rallycross and stage rally, too. I don't think any problems he ever had were diff related.

In reply to ojannen:

I'm using an OBX knockoff of a Quaife diff in my 1gn Neon. It was instrumental in helping me to break CV joints. When the axles weren't breaking, however, it greatly improved the ability of the car to plow into corners and dig its way out.

Cblais19 wrote: I'd look at an E36 since they're much more available then E30s, but consensus seems to be that they're far more fragile especially in the subframe mount area right?

318ti, the funky hatch was part E36 chassis with simpler E30esque (so some would say sturdier) rear suspension. They aren't quite as common but seem to be dirt cheap when they do pop up for sale.

BG chassis, either mazda 323, Escort GT, mazda mx-3, protege.

or Volvo 240.

If you decide to go BG chassis I may be able to make you an offer that you can't refuse.

I replied to your email, btw. Let me know if it goes through–I've been having email issues today.