Your recommendation for American V8 crapcan racecar choice

Looking at building/buying a crapcan racer - My Granada project is going in another direction, so I'm leaning toward something else.  I still want to stick with fun to drive, V8-powered (I know - but I like V8 noises), and cheap spares.  I'm thinking junkyard LS power in a GM G-body (Regal, Cutlass, Monte Carlo) - for circle track parts, 2nd/3rd gen F-body, or Fox/SN-95 Mustang.   I'm a fan of the G-body because replacement circle track parts...

Long-term it could get a more interesting body swap (thinking of the Seville body-swapped Camaro), but I'm thinking more simple for the platform to begin with.  If I'm able to keep it together then maybe try something more creative...

Which of those three would you go with?

G-body?

F-body?

Fox/SN-95?

Or something completely different?

G-body makes sense, and I've always wanted one but a different car enthusiast segment has driven the price up/limited the supply.

What about 4th gen X-body N.O.V.A. cars (Nova, Omega, Ventura, Apollo)? Always inexpensive when you see them, a lot had V8, front suspension is F-body.

I have a hate/hate relationship with the F-body.  In stock form they just flat out suck.  Noodly unibodies with subframes bolted on using big rubber biscuits.  Floptastic.  They can be made stiffer, but why not start with something stiffer already?

G body is great, but take a good hard look at Ford Mavericks.  They were two sizes smaller than the mustang, only weigh about as much as a WRX, and came from the factory with a V8.

Suspensions aren't what I would call inspiring but many of the M2 suspension bits will work and there is a great aftermarket for them.

Pre-74 will save you another 150 lbs IIRC because it was before the 5mph bumpers

Plus, it has that Mad Max vibe like the Aussie Falcon.

I have a Maverick  stashed up in the Country.(yes you can get further out than I am Now) And had thought about Stretching my E R A 427 Cobra Chassis and setting it on that. that Blue car is Beautiful. Last year GRM had one in the forum or Mag that was white W/ a Jap engine in it, Kinda B A.

We run against a really fast, reliable Fox Mustang.  My impression with running V8 stuff is you need some sympathetic drivers.  An Integra will run all damn day flat out at redline.  A Mustang probably won't.]\

Having said that, a 5.0 Mustang would be my V8 car of choice.

I would go G-body as well. Too much of a Aftermarket support and said cheap oval parts too.

I have seen a few cheap S10 with v8 swaps and a few cheap Vetts, one was even a stick.

For the easy button, Mustang. They have a huge after-market and they can be had in any condition and price.

The second gen f bodies also have a big aftermarket for oval racing parts. They do have better front end geometry and lower Center of gravity the g body. Unibody vs full frame. Leaf spring vs 4 link. Actually in imca their stock car and hobby stock divisions are dominated by the g body but the f body is specifically outlawed from both classes.

Cough...P71....cough

GTXVette said:

I have a Maverick  stashed up in the Country.(yes you can get further out than I am Now) And had thought about Stretching my E R A 427 Cobra Chassis and setting it on that. that Blue car is Beautiful. Last year GRM had one in the forum or Mag that was white W/ a Jap engine in it, Kinda B A.

I had a 74 Mav that I was going to swap in an STI AWD driveline.  Crank up the boost a bit and hoon the crap out of it.

Depends on the series.

Big gas tank is probably the biggest factor for champcar.  If you are gonna swap, pay attention to all of the rules.

An ls is NOT going to work in Champcar.  The rules will not allow it and stay below the penalty laps values.

Engine must come from a car listed on the vpi list, so no 4.8 or 5.3 either.

Lemons would probably give you a metric ton of points for any of these combinations.

Aer and wrl would be good places to play with a beast like this.

We ran a g body for years.  The consumable costs are crazy high compared to a lighter smaller car.  

Making the car go fast and handle well requires taking everything off the bottom of the car and replacing it with something else.  Lots of work for a semi quick car that will be expensive.

I imagine this is true for most any.american muscle.   That's why they are not run as much as miata and 3 series bmws.

In reply to wvumtnbkr :

I think the gas tank issue can be slightly compensated for by using the largest fuel cell allowable. 

You are correct about the LS engine though - while it might be a "good idea", it would effectively take the car completely out of competition.  So if I stick with production engines (ish) it will be old-school Chevy 305/350, and Ford would be a pushrod 302 or a 4.6 SOHC (which require some oil pan mods to survive at the track in my sad experience).

What consumables did you go through the most?  I imagine tires and brakes would be the worst, as all of the weight being shoved around would wear those parts most.  Did you use circle track parts, or other?

In reply to fanfoy :

A P71 is not the worst idea either - any idea how the suspension geometry compares to the G-body?

Plus body swaps can get really easy with the full frame...

FIYAPOWA said:

In reply to fanfoy :

A P71 is not the worst idea either - any idea how the suspension geometry compares to the G-body?

Plus body swaps can get really easy with the full frame...

It's one of the top choices in Lemons.

If you want good handling, you want a +03 model. They have suspension that is superior to a similar year Mustang.

FIYAPOWA said:

In reply to wvumtnbkr :

I think the gas tank issue can be slightly compensated for by using the largest fuel cell allowable. 

You are correct about the LS engine though - while it might be a "good idea", it would effectively take the car completely out of competition.  So if I stick with production engines (ish) it will be old-school Chevy 305/350, and Ford would be a pushrod 302 or a 4.6 SOHC (which require some oil pan mods to survive at the track in my sad experience).

What consumables did you go through the most?  I imagine tires and brakes would be the worst, as all of the weight being shoved around would wear those parts most.  Did you use circle track parts, or other?

 

Biggest fuel cell is +2 gallons over stock.

Brakes, tires, and FUEL!  Tires for a car that size were about $180.00 a piece for competitive tires.  WE went through about 9.5 gallons per hour (14 hours of racing = 14*9.5*2.75= about $400 in gas for the weekend.  Brakes are about $400 for the front and rear pads.  So, in consumables for a weekend you were looking at right around 1800 to 1900$ per race.

My current car is about $500 LESS than that per race.  It does add up!

FIYAPOWA said:

In reply to wvumtnbkr :

I think the gas tank issue can be slightly compensated for by using the largest fuel cell allowable. 

Which for ChampCar is going to be +2 gallons over stock. That's great if your running a Miata, but when you're burning 12 gallons an hour in your V8 you just bought yourself 10 more minutes of fuel.

We race a 3rd gen F-body with a 350 sbc. It's got good power on the straights, but is heavy and gets cobbled up in the corners. You may want to take a look at a Cougar- fox chassis with a bigger gas tank.   

correct... P71s after 03 got some pretty nice suspensions.

G-body has one of the worst out-of-the-box, but cheap circle track stuff makes it light years better for not too much coin.  Their main problem is short spindles which (with the distance between upper and lower arms) makes for really poopy camber curves.  They camber out on compression.  Taller spindles will get you into the inward arc of the upper arm and help tremendously.

B-body spindles are a common swap, but two issues: They are wider which will kick the front wheels out about an inch, and their steering arm attachment point is way off causing bump steer.  Many guys tackle the wheel offset by using a staggered set of F-body wheels and putting fronts on the rear and rears on the fronts.  Looks a little funny, but prevents rubbing.

They can really be made to handle very well with some circle track and parts bin shopping, but suffice it to say you are staring with a severe handicap.  I might look to a better-handling car to start with to save money

No C4 love? Not a muscle car, but that's what I'd go for if I was looking to start a crapcan racer. Auto's are cheap (yea, not as fun, but its still a v8).

In reply to Sonolin :

That's a good option - I was thinking of vehicles with cheap body replacement panels (so the car isn't totalled the first time I get bumped).  Not that Lemons/Chumpcar is high-impact like a dirt track or anything, but I think it would be better for me if the first shunt doesn't have me crying about the unobtanium panels. 

Anyone have experience repairing track rash on a Vette?  Fiberglass fixes easy, but any other weak points to a Vette?

1984 corvettes or newer start with 3 penalty laps before you change ANYTHING in Champcar.

I do not know Crapcar racing but a Lincoln Mark 8 makes for a great Challenge car right out of the box, pretty much stock.  Much of this is because you can buy the 32 valve V8 rwd cars cheap.  

They came from the factory with an airbag suspension but the popular repair for blown bags is to replace with spings.  Seek out one that is already wearing springs or one that is sitting on blown bags.   

Im not sure where you are located but for me, just opening CL, there are 3 bargains to choose from within a 1 hour radius.  

https://cleveland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1998-lincoln-viii/6455212221.html  

https://annarbor.craigslist.org/cto/d/lincoln-mark-viii/6467776921.html

https://akroncanton.craigslist.org/cto/d/1996-lincoln-mark-viii/6471599198.html

In reply to John Welsh :

These are the MN-12 chassis, right?  I hadn't considered these too much because I assumed they would be overly heavy, and the MN-12 IRS isn't as much performance as it is about ride?  

Perhaps a better question is: How much should I be worried about replacement body panels in crapcan racing?

This one is closer to me:

Linky

Yes, it is MN-12.

I have no Crapcan experience so I have no idea about panel replacement.  Others may.  However, JY parts should be plentiful.  

Another oddity of Mark 8 is the lug parttern.  Though rwd it is a 5x108, same as large Ford fwd like Taurus and Lincoln Continental.  For The Challenge we ran a set of Taurus alloys that were stupid cheap.   Said another way, Mustang rims will not fit.  

The new series around here for crapcans has shown a couple of surprising entries you might consider.

Lincoln LS is faster and handles better than you'd give it credit for.  Basically a V8 Jag under the American skin.

Probe GT isn't V8 but it's a roudy V6 that pulls hard and consumes less dollars per hour.

Crown Vics are terrible.  Too lumbering, too slow.

I tried a Foxbody. Good shape, but in street nick. No tubular suspension mods or anything. But new shocks, bushings, and tires all around. Very nicely refreshed mechanically, too.

Took me no time at all to decide it wasn't the car for me. I used the motor and transmission in something else for my main track car, and sold the roller to a drag racer.

Snomish seems to love the hell out of his Fairmont.