New Big Twin Motor from The Motor Co.

Harley is well-aware that their traditional target audience isn't a growing population. My understanding is that they have been doing research to find out what Harley means to non-motorcyclists, particularly people in who are intrigued by bikes. Apparently cool-looking, cool-sounding, black and chrome American cruiser-style motorcycles is Harley to many outside their current customer base. These folks generally don't know or care about specific valve trains, 45-degree single crankpin v-twins, belt drives, etc.

I think it is cool to see a successful company as old as Harley not just resting on their laurels.

I'm also bummed I missed the Livewire tour and test rides!

stuart in mn wrote: The reliability thing was solved a long time ago, as far as I know modern Harleys are pretty bulletproof. The handling/acceleration is a different matter, but they are (mostly) cruiser and touring bikes not designed to compete against sportbikes, so that's comparing apples and oranges.

Fun and experience trumps everything for me on a motorcycle. I have more fun in a Harley at my skill set and riding style then anything else.

foxtrapper wrote: If it was just the engine Huck, I wouldn't had said anything. But it seems like they are addressing a whole lot of issues at the same time. Victory and Indian are the two biggest competitors for Harley, and they both have had bikes that are well beyond Harley's level of technology as offered. Now, Harley appears to have greatly closed that gap. Finally, fork tubes that are more than a plunger, a hole and some oil. Actual variable rates. That's decades in the waiting. The good rear shocks that have only been available as an upgrade option are now standard. And then all those engine and drive train improvements. 4 valves per cylinder, improved combustion chamber shape, counterbalancing, stronger stator, single camshaft, etc. I don't particularly agree with you about chassis stiffness or brakes. Neither are really significant on a big heavy touring bike and stock seems very adequate to the task. That said, using my 04 as an example, I know where some serious problems do live, and it's not where it's normally blamed as being. This is the first of the new bikes that gives me pause with regards to my 04 RK. Not saying at all that I'm going to trade it in. Just that it is the first of the later bikes that makes me even seriously consider looking.

I guess I missed a click through or something, I didn't see anything except engine deets in the link. Their bike sales have been slipping over the last couple years (according to the WSJ, not me, they are selling strongly around here) and the effort to capture young riders with that entry level bike (Street 750 I think?) they put out in '15 didn't really take off at all. I'm still not likely to be the target demographic unless they do up a new Ulysses with all the goods but ya never know. I like the look of the Night Rod Special they have on the website for '17. If it happened to go, stop and turn like stink I could rock that.

Someone I know well will buy one of these bikes instantly and so I'll get to see one up close as soon as they become available.

Appleseed wrote: To be fair, this crew likes Yugos, Samurai, and the occasional derelict school bus from Wisconsin, so there's no reason for us to exclude Harleys.

Should I feel bad about the Samurai and the bus? I suddenly feel like I'm bringing down the average around here.

Hell no. When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

As a long time hater of HD I'm still human enough to admit they are actually pretty reliable now,they damn well better be for the money and the decades long evolution of each engine though.

Interesting reads on this bike now. Harley wasted no time in going from announcing it to getting it out on the market.

Everyone, from the tuners to the skeptics are saying it is much smoother, with engine vibration being almost completely gone. Power is well up, and much smoother and uniform. Ride quality is also improved, as is handling. Many comments on lack of heat, which is also darn nice to hear about.

Complaints are almost only from the "I want to be tough" crowd, decrying the lack of vibration and excessive refinement or "japanesing" of the bike. As well lack of noise and that the engine sounds "different".

All in all, it sounds like it's a really big jump forward.

foxtrapper wrote: Interesting reads on this bike now. Harley wasted no time in going from announcing it to getting it out on the market.

They've been building them since April/May. Prototypes were running last October.

Harleys have never done anything to appeal to me. I do like the look of the Sportster but the poor ride and handling out of the box makes them a no-go for this guy. Too bad the Motor Co has never bothered to really make the Sportster better like Triumph has done with the Bonneville. Their huge bikes are just...huge. Not my cup of tea. And then there are the owners. Some are great. Many are clothing branded morons. And some are Foxtrappers.

So in general they aren't for me; we've established that. However, I will say this: I do get the appeal now that I have ridden one. The torque is cool, the sound is intoxicating, they can be pretty to look at and if you get the right one they actually can handle okay.

Would I buy one? No. Do I respect them? Yeah. Just because they aren't my thing doesn't mean they are bad machines. Unless someone has at least tried one or two their opinion doesn't matter.

I wish H-D continued success. Nice to see a company in the US still doing what they do and being profitable but yeah, they need to think about what the future looks like. I don't think they can rest on their laurels anymore. The customer base that was willing to tolerate the AMF days is dying off and the new generation isn't brand loyal.

The determination to maintain pushrods and a single cam lead to a very pretty rocker arm.

I like the LS-esque intake manifold (don't ask me why but I instantly thought LS when I saw it)

Oil cooled cylinders, just like the old anvil reliable suzuki GS* line up.

It looks like they left alot of weight in the motor for the sake of marketing (no truly modern Harley allowed just like no mid-engine 911s allowed, The V-Rod proves this as it is far from a stunning sales success even though the engine is very good), but given the fact that Harley killed off (murdered?) Buell which were true performance bikes for cruisers (power, boulevard, and touring) with essentially just one crusier-esque standard (sportster), it seems like a very appropriate update for the brand.

No new tech, just reliably proven tech. And let's be honest with ourselves, in the type of bikes they build, that is exactly what they need.

I hope it is the most successful engine they have had to date (since the V-Rod motor isn't going to be it).

In reply to ddavidv:

That pretty well sums up my thoughts also - I get the appeal, I respect the bikes for what they are, they're just mostly not for me. I have yet to actually ride an HD, but I deal with their product day in and day out working for a tier 1 supplier. Anyone making the assertion nowadays that they're unreliable or of inferior quality is simply misinformed and parroting the same 40 year old biases against the brand. They're built to a hell of a standard these days, and even in the three short years I've been at my job I've seen that bar continue to be raised.

IMO, I think a big part of their problem with an aging customer base is simply the accessibility at the price point they're offered at. That and a relative lack of diversity in the lineup - they're strictly cruisers. There just aren't a lot of guys my age that can afford to drop 12, 15, or 20+ grand on a bike, nor would they want to on Grandpa's 900+ lb bagger. Trying to move down market and expand the lineup is certainly walking a fine line for a company so thoroughly steeped in tradition and image. I think the Street models are a classic example of the potential pitfalls, but I also think they were a rather predictable failure - built overseas and sharing none of the major mechanicals or DNA with the rest of the lineup, and cheap looking to boot (again, IMO.)

Why not instead expand on the Sportster lineup, similarly to what Triumph has done with the Bonnie? (i.e. Thruxton, Scrambler) I really like the new Roadster, loved the XR1200, and actually think the 48 is a neat looking (yet rather impractical) bike. The issue, though, is all of those models are still well over $10k new. If they could build a scrambler (ala the numerous "Dirtster" builds found on the webs) or cafe styled bike that was actually somewhat more functional than simply a styling exercise and sell it in the $7500-9000 bracket, I would be legitimately interested. That's square in the heart of 883 territory price wise, yet as far as I know the sole 883 model they offer is the Iron.

In reply to Furious_E:

I would guess weight, and weight kills performance. The new engine looks the buis but I would guess it still is too heavy to be anything other than a cruiser, which as you said, is all of the harley lineup (I would even put sporster in the newb cruiser class with the 31.1 degree rake and 520 lb dry weight with a whopping 68 hp/50 lb-ft it has.)

You can not build anything but a cruiser out those numbers. Which is fine. Which I think HD thinks is fine too given the limited style, how much they charge, and how many they sell.

Let the kiddos drop the Rebel 5 times before they get the hang of it. Then they can go and buy a proper cruiser from HD.

In reply to Flight Service:

I respectfully disagree. Look at what Yamaha is doing with the Bolt platform (which is basically about as direct a competitor to the Sporty as I can think of) and all the variants they're spinning off of it, with IIRC no changes to the frame geometry or major running gear. You could maybe do an alternate geometry frame for the Sportster with the rake steepened a bit for some of the variants, as that is the only real killer I see. While heavy for sure, the weight wouldn't be totally out of line with some of the competitive offerings. Power is a breeze, wasn't Buell making close to 100 hp out of that same motor?

HD thinking that they can be content to continue just building cruisers is the problem, they have backed themselves into a niche corner of the market from which they are afraid to venture because 'tradition.' This market is shrinking, as evidenced by their continual failure to meet sales projections the last several years. They're not allowed to adapt or innovate for fear of pissing off a customer base that is worse than a bunch of air cooled 911 owners. So the question is how to branch out from that in a way which leverages the history and image of the brand yet manages to appeal to a broader population of riders? They've got the guy who just buys the Rebel to drop for a year before trading in on an HD, how do you get the guy on the R3/CBR250, or the 250 dual sport, or the TU250?

In reply to Furious_E:

I've ridden a Bolt. In direct comparison to an 883 Sportster, it's crap. Sure, it might be lighter and faster, but the buzz in the bars and seat will numb you, before you need to stop for gas. Forget about looking at what's behind you, the mirrors are a blur.

In reply to Furious_E:

I understand where you are going with it, but in the cruiser market, the Japanese have been playing build-a-Harley for years. And from talking to a guy at Yamaha production they know, "we still do not completely understand what the expectations are of the American public."

There are some markets that there is a big cultural difference with. The Japanese 4 keep building a look alike without the "spirit". If it was a Ducati we would call it "character", Guzzi it would be "soul". Japanese woud call it a defect. The people who tend to buy HDs, by Demographic bulk, aren't looking for what the Japanese are selling. The want a lifestyle and icon more than a motorcycle. HD gets that, and leverages the hilt out of it.

Harley tried a sport bike and failed, Harley tried futuristic really competitive bikes and didn't like the guy getting fed up and outsourcing a proper engine, killing it and chalking it up to a failure.

Harley owns a portion of the market with everyone else nibbling at scraps in the segment. Harley has tried to break out of the segment and has failed every time. How many times must they waste money on what doesn't fit their core competency?

Harley is a branding company. They do that as well as anyone in the world. They just happen to use motorcycle and motorcycle accessories to making money off of it.

I said it before, but I am going to repeat it for emphasis, the new motor isn't ground breaking in anyway. It isn't something will get a Wards engine of the year award, but for Harley it doesn't need to be. They used reliable proven tech in a new package to hit their market. The gave people a new reason to buy a new Harley. In the end, that is what they do.

The more I think about it, Harley would be better off, if they wanted to diversify, in doing a less futuristic Buell with a new modern engine. Doesn't even has to be that modern and put it under a different name. Build new chassis, a bike with an integrated transmission and can rev to 10k rpm. I am sure they know, or can hire the engine done. Revamp the now aging V-Rod engine. The success of the SV-650 shows a middleweight V-twin can succeed.

Maybe an transmission integrated version of the new 108, or a downsized model.

In reply to Flight Service:

Which is true. Until you look at Project Livewire. That came out of nowhere. I can't imagine anything not fitting the demographic more.

And it's the first Harley I've ever wanted.

Flight Service wrote: The more I think about it, Harley would be better off, if they wanted to diversify, in doing a less futuristic Buell with a new modern engine. Doesn't even has to be that modern and put it under a different name. Build new chassis, a bike with an integrated transmission and can rev to 10k rpm. I am sure they know, or can hire the engine done. Revamp the now aging V-Rod engine. The success of the SV-650 shows a middleweight V-twin can succeed. Maybe an transmission integrated version of the new 108, or a downsized model.

They somewhat did that with the XR1200R a few years ago (sportster frame, Buell motor, actual suspension) but the tail and front wheel looked very strange.

They have the platform and motor in the street series but they way it looked it comes off as a very committee/ultra cheaply built bike.

The new Sportster Roadster while very traditional solid look is actually a really good performer. Now stuff the new Milwaukee Eight into a modern FXR frame make it part of the Dyna family and they could be onto something.

Flight Service wrote: The more I think about it, Harley would be better off, if they wanted to diversify, in doing a less futuristic Buell with a new modern engine. Doesn't even has to be that modern and put it under a different name. Build new chassis, a bike with an integrated transmission and can rev to 10k rpm. I am sure they know, or can hire the engine done. Revamp the now aging V-Rod engine. The success of the SV-650 shows a middleweight V-twin can succeed. Maybe an transmission integrated version of the new 108, or a downsized model.

I said earlier in this thread... if they did up a competitively featured and powered Buell Ulysses re-do ADV entry I'd be interested. I don't want a cruiser and they don't really have alternatives of any seriousness at all in any other category right now. I don't expect them to suddenly burst onto the sportbike scene with a R1200RR beater but an upright adv bike with serious low end grunt and some nice luggage seems well within their grasp from the parts bin. It they could put an exhaust on it so it didn't say "potato-potato" all day long that would be swell also.

In reply to DanyloS:

Harley will never break out of the cruiser market till the get weight off of their bikes, and their engines are a yuuuuggggeeee part of that problem. Their engine/transmission set up is just plain ancient school (old school has an integrated transmission in a cradle frame at least, lets not try an engine stressed member, of course Harley maintaining their traditional vibration has a lot to do with it but lets save that for another discussion). That transmission set up adds weight, space, and maintenance. None of which is what bodes well for non-cruiser applications.

I would love to see the new motor in something like a Morgan!

Appleseed wrote: In reply to Flight Service: Which is true. Until you look at Project Livewire. That came out of nowhere. I can't imagine anything not fitting the demographic more. And it's the first Harley I've ever wanted.

huh, looks like Harley made an electric Diablo!

I like electric vehicles love the torque and how quiet they are. If I am not going fast, I like the fact it is low noise.

I wonder the weight difference between a Fat Boy style bike with a battery/motor combination with equal performance to a regular Fat Boy?

Flight Service wrote: I like electric vehicles love the torque and how quiet they are. If I am not going fast, I like the fact it is low noise.

Shame that the designers added artificial noise to the Livewire.

IIn reply to RealMiniParker:

I own wire snips

Huckleberry wrote:

Flight Service wrote: The more I think about it, Harley would be better off, if they wanted to diversify, in doing a less futuristic Buell with a new modern engine. Doesn't even has to be that modern and put it under a different name. Build new chassis, a bike with an integrated transmission and can rev to 10k rpm. I am sure they know, or can hire the engine done. Revamp the now aging V-Rod engine. The success of the SV-650 shows a middleweight V-twin can succeed. Maybe an transmission integrated version of the new 108, or a downsized model.

I said earlier in this thread... if they did up a competitively featured and powered Buell Ulysses re-do ADV entry I'd be interested. I don't want a cruiser and they don't really have alternatives of any seriousness at all in any other category right now. I don't expect them to suddenly burst onto the sportbike scene with a R1200RR beater but an upright adv bike with serious low end grunt and some nice luggage seems well within their grasp from the parts bin. It they could put an exhaust on it so it didn't say "potato-potato" all day long that would be swell also.

I thought the Ulysses was the worst selling of all the Buells?

In reply to Flight Service:

No Buells were good sellers, really. The Uly was a good bike.