15 years ago in UT it was 10 hours class time and a very rigorous test (60% failure rate for first attempts IIRC) At least that is what I remember my dad having to do (because a 15 year old really pays attention). May have changed since then.
15 years ago in UT it was 10 hours class time and a very rigorous test (60% failure rate for first attempts IIRC) At least that is what I remember my dad having to do (because a 15 year old really pays attention). May have changed since then.
Had this talk at a family BBQ last weekend. My niece's fiance' is a reporter for a newspaper, my cousin's son started as a construction apprentice guy a while ago. Reporter is lamenting the politics and BS, wishing for a new career. I suggested something blue collar. Cousin's son said "The Trades".
He's 40-ish, plays in a band, has a nice three story house all glass on one side, has a Mercialogo and a '39 Ford flattie for toys; maybe something to it.
No, that part of the family is not connected.
914Driver said:Had this talk at a family BBQ last weekend. My niece's fiance' is a reporter for a newspaper, my cousin's son started as a construction apprentice guy a while ago. Reporter is lamenting the politics and BS, wishing for a new career. I suggested something blue collar. Cousin's son said "The Trades".
He's 40-ish, plays in a band, has a nice three story house all glass on one side, has a Mercialogo and a '39 Ford flattie for toys; maybe something to it.
No, that part of the family is not connected.
I'm assuming if she's writing for a newspaper, she has a four-year degree. She can likely turn her long-hours/low-pay career into a nice Technical Writing living.
Robbie said:Just posting because I am currently struggling to find a plumber. We need to have our water heater certified (a legal requirement for the local government presiding over the house we are currently selling). Basically someone needs to come look at the water heater to make sure it is hooked up normally and then run some hot water in the tub to make sure it's hot. $150 service, should take 30 mintues or less, if you are local you could just swing by before or after a close by service.
We can't get someone to call us back, and the one guy we just caught on the phone very tersely told us: "I can't help YOU! I'm freaking SWAMPED!"
So, when you have so much business that you can yell at people asking to pay you $300/hr you must be doing something right.
Adding contrast to this, we also recently had a tree taken down. 40-50 ft tall locust about 2 ft diameter trunk (was hollowing out inside because of ants - boo).
6 guys took it down in an hour, but they also had 3 trucks, one flatbed with a lift gate for the trunk pieces, one with a serious wood chipper, and a bucket truck. A few serious chainsaws, leaf blowers, pole saws, etc. $1000. After paying the overhead, disposal of the waste, and all the equipment payments and gas, I bet the guys are down to $20-$40 /hour, for hard, dangerous work.
I'd rather be the plumber and have to stick my hand in E36 M3 every once in a while.
z31maniac said:I just paid them $300 to install a mid-grade garbage disposal. And that INCLUDED buying the disposal from the plumber. Granted the plug was already under the sink and ready to go, but still $175+tax for the disposal, a few misc parts, 45 minutes of labor.
TIL i have been massively undercharging for installing a garbage disposal... 
In 1990, 72% of males aged 16 to 24 were in the labor force. What is this figure today?
Correct Answer
Less than 60%
Tell Me More
In 2016, 56% of males aged 16 to 24 were in the labor force. Per a 2015 analysis of teen and young adult employment by the Brookings Institution: "Most teens are missing key learning and developmental experiences that will prepare them for the labor market and adulthood. Learning how to function in a work environment--to be responsible, assess situations, accept feedback, identify when to seek assistance, and so on--are best learned through direct experience. Teens know the social role of the student, whether they embrace the role or not, but these data suggest they are learning far less about the role of the worker. The implications will play out in years to come."
DocumentationLabor Force ParticipationBrookings Analysis
Interesting tidbit. And yes I did not guess the correct answer. 
I think 16 to 24 is an odd age bracket to identify and extrapolating some sort of significance even harder.
lateapexer said:I think 16 to 24 is an odd age bracket to identify and extrapolating some sort of significance even harder.
maybe extrapolating significance is hard (as it always is), but the age bracket also pretty clearly identifies "males who work during high school and college ages".
lateapexer said:I think 16 to 24 is an odd age bracket to identify and extrapolating some sort of significance even harder.
I thought the same, but click on the link and they break it out a little bit more.
Rufledt said:z31maniac said:I just paid them $300 to install a mid-grade garbage disposal. And that INCLUDED buying the disposal from the plumber. Granted the plug was already under the sink and ready to go, but still $175+tax for the disposal, a few misc parts, 45 minutes of labor.
TIL i have been massively undercharging for installing a garbage disposal...
Just to clarify, that was $300 including the $175 for the disposal. So parts and labor were just more than $100. Which I'm perfectly fine with.
We prioritize our kids success in school and sports over their future success in the workplace. This is largely because grades and sports achievements can make college free. To make matters worse, most employers will not hire kids under 18 anymore.
I worked customer facing jobs since I was 14, but for family. When I was 16 I worked in a restaurant as a bus boy. At 18 I worked for Circuit City over the Holidays.
None of it really prepared me for working as a laborer in construction. Even working in an auto-shop before and after, I just found construction really freakin hard, hot, and the people somewhat unpleasant. By comparison, my time as a grease monkey and tire changer wasn't easy either (my back still suffered) but I got on with it better than construction.
I still think it's because I 1) worked with a crew who knew I was temporary so they didn't invest in me 2) I knew the work was temporary so I didn't invest the time in finding a good employer and team to work with 3) I was a softie. I ran track highschool but by the time I was working these construction job I was out of shape and avoiding the sun.
Amazingly enough, I've met people who were far worse off than me in terms of inability to work with or communicate with people who are different than them, or who's view of "hard work" is very skewed. Hell, my nanny is 24 and never worked a real job. She's been a nanny or babysitter since she was 16.
Do we believe the trades are more accessible for young people fresh out of high-school, or should perhaps colleges offer more trades specific 4-year degrees? "Bachelors of Residential Construction and Management" type things? Or instead, is the demand and opportune time for anyone in search of employment to make the switch?
Six Figures, or even high fives is pretty damn good money that can be obtained without college debt, but with so many people these days graduating with college debt, is it possible to earn that same type of money pre-license? I'd be curious to know what the average unlicensed plumber makes.
In reply to pheller :
Like any job, it’s a switch that is best when younger, and the more qualified you are the better your opportunities, and the more you hustle, the more you make.
Average unlicensed plumbers are, well, average.
How about the average unlicensed engineer or architect? The average unlicensed hair stylist? The average guy with no hustle or drive? The average computer guy who just wants to punch the clock, not get new certifications, or respond to after-hours emergency calls?
It’s a business with opportunities for those who want to take advantage of them. Unlike many.
Its not for everyone.
pheller said:To make matters worse, most employers will not hire kids under 18 anymore.
As someone who worked a lot at at young age and employed younger people for several decades I can offer some comments and why I stopped hiring under 18.
I grew up in the 70's and started working mowing neighbors lawns at about 11 YO then around 1970 as a 12 YO started working for the
Most of todays parents wouldn't allow their kid to work like that. And people won't hire kids that young at all for fear of possible injury and legal issues.
After college (early 80's) I opened retail stores while also working managing others companies. I hired 16 YO kids for some of the positions with the understanding they could only work during non school hours (to prevent them from dropping out to work full time). They were required to work one weekend day and had another weekday off so they would be able to schedule doctors appointments and other things that need to be done during regular business hours.
In the beginning that was fine, but by the late 80's parents were telling the kids to tell me they couldn't work certain weekends at all and had to have 1-3 weeks off for family vacations etc. By the mid 90's parents were scheduling doctors, dentists, and other activities whenever it was convenient for the parents along with the forced family vacations and other things. It got to be too much of a hassle trying to constantly rearrange work schedules for a bunch of part time people in various stores so one day I had to make the decision. NO MORE HIGH SCHOOL KIDS.
I worked at Quik Trip in high school and college. Needing certain days off for specific activities was never a big deal and if you were going on vacation you asked in advance to schedule around it, and then you also sometimes switched shifts with people to get things accomplished.
I started at 16, in '98 and worked until the end of '01 after my freshman year of college.
It sounds like you expected unrealistic things of students because you were willing to forego other things to work more at a young age.
Another question about the trades:
Do construction, or any trades for that matter, have the possibility of offering increased flexible? If a guy can make $100k working overtime, can someone make $50k working part-time?
Personally, I think that's the future of all attractive employment options, is the ability to offer more flexible instead of necessarily defaulting to "you can make big bucks!" I think people would be willing to deal with hard, possibly training and requirement intensive work, if they only had to work 6-months out of the year. Teacher-like jobs for folks who aren't teachers. I know of a lot of construction guys take winters off, especially in places like Alaska.
In reply to pheller :
Most people do not have to work overtime.
Few small employers can handle the expense of training someone for the job then not having them available for 6 months of the year. Hard to run a business like that.
pheller said:Another question about the trades:
Do construction, or any trades for that matter, have the possibility of offering increased flexible? If a guy can make $100k working overtime, can someone make $50k working part-time?
Personally, I think that's the future of all attractive employment options, is the ability to offer more flexible instead of necessarily defaulting to "you can make big bucks!" I think people would be willing to deal with hard, possibly training and requirement intensive work, if they only had to work 6-months out of the year. Teacher-like jobs for folks who aren't teachers. I know of a lot of construction guys take winters off, especially in places like Alaska.
I refuse to work weekends and loathe overtime. I pretty much always get a month or 2 off work in winter
16-24 is high school and pretty much college age. I graduated high school in 2007 so I'm pretty young compared to y'all. School pushes kids to pass a test not function as an adult in a laborious job. Also, we watched our parents break their back just to lose their house and not be able to enjoy their old age because they worked all their health away. We (my generation) value free time and helping each other more than the big bucks. Though, we tend to graduate college with crippling debt because America said that's the way. Just my opinion on us terrible terrible lazy undriven spoiled millennials lmao (sarcasm).
Honestly though:
I rather make 60k and have great vacation perks than make 90k and have to slave all day almost everyday especially in the elements. I also rather make that 60k doing something meaningful that I enjoy rather than a high paying labor jobs I probably wouldn't be interested in.
But, I do think plumbing is a pretty good business to be in. Everyone has to E36 M3. My wife is in teeth and everyone has those. I don't knock people busting knuckles and loving it. Though they sometimes tend to knock the cush office workers lol.
Me, I make 60k sitting behind computer screens with pretty much set hours and I spend almost all my free time with my kid. Exactly how I want it. I have a few long lasting injuries from the perks of certain aspects of my job. But, I know by the time Im 40 my son will be starting his second year in college and I should still have my health lol. And I'll be retired once already, if I choose to be. Can't berkeleying wait!
pheller said:Another question about the trades:
Do construction, or any trades for that matter, have the possibility of offering increased flexible? If a guy can make $100k working overtime, can someone make $50k working part-time?
Personally, I think that's the future of all attractive employment options, is the ability to offer more flexible instead of necessarily defaulting to "you can make big bucks!" I think people would be willing to deal with hard, possibly training and requirement intensive work, if they only had to work 6-months out of the year. Teacher-like jobs for folks who aren't teachers. I know of a lot of construction guys take winters off, especially in places like Alaska.
I'm with you there from a personal desire standpoint, but in no way do I think that is the future of attractive employment options. Most employees would rather work more/get paid more, and most businesses would rather their employees work more.
Well having had the fun of being in the (trades) as a commercial electrician. I would say being a plumber would be next on my list of what I would have chosen.
Sorry but yupidity sound's like who I run into as apprentices in there 30's and 40's with that same attitude. I don't want to be like my parents. Then realize that they waisted good years in a low paying safe job to be looking at having no retirement or money to send their kids to college with.
I don't think anyone really wants to be like their parents.
I do know that I make over 6 figures a year doing a job I actually like. Opposed to the one month of internship in a accounting firm. Learned really quick that life wasn't for me.
Have had 3 apprentices in the last couple of years have their 4 year degree's that would never be able to pay off there student debt in the field they chose.
They all have chosen a trade because it afforded them to pay off their loans within 6-7 years. So after they turn out and are Journeyman Electricians they will have the debt paid off just as they start making their best wages.
One of the problems I see is that where I'm located at making 6 figures a year. I still can't afford to buy a house let alone raise a family in the city I grew up in.
I feel wages are hard to pin down as a marker of making a good living.
I'm guessing I'd have it made in the mid-west or the southeast with my wage. Being that the cost of living is so much less than here.
I guess what I'm trying to get at is to many people are mislead into feeling you aren't good enough unless you go to college. Which means that they miss the chance to see if a trade is a better fit for them until it's to late or their up to their arm pits in debt from school.
Reading all these posts has got me looking into Plumbing classes at the local tech school. Is it a good career change for a 40 year old?
brad131a4 said:
Sorry but yupidity sound's like who I run into as apprentices in there 30's and 40's with that same attitude. I don't want to be like my parents. Then realize that they waisted good years in a low paying safe job to be looking at having no retirement or money to send their kids to college with.
I don't think anyone really wants to be like their parents.
I do know that I make over 6 figures a year doing a job I actually like. Opposed to the one month of internship in a accounting firm. Learned really quick that life wasn't for me.
Have had 3 apprentices in the last couple of years have their 4 year degree's that would never be able to pay off there student debt in the field they chose.
They all have chosen a trade because it afforded them to pay off their loans within 6-7 years. So after they turn out and are Journeyman Electricians they will have the debt paid off just as they start making their best wages.
I mean "Yupidty" always made good money, great benefits, and good vacation time. My mom works at NASA research center Langley doing something she loves so yeah I'd like to be like her. Don't think my attitude reflects what you're trying to say it does.
I also don't think I went the "safe" route, my multiple trips to the middle east say differently especially when I was a TACP in the field all the time. But now im IT making the same money as an equal rank TACP would make but with E36 M3 ton more free time for my family and less stressful on the body. But, yeah I guess the safe route and wasted good years with no retirement was what I was looking for.
The reality is. People who don't want to slave away at a job that makes 100k they may not like doesn't mean their 60k job won't have benefits and it doesn't mean they not saving for retirement and college like you and your 6 figures are.
It sucks your apprentices are in the same boat as most of post-college Americans. But the trades aren't always the answer just like that accounting firm wasn't for you. I have a good friend that did a year internship at a financial institute and it was hell for him. Then that firm hired him and last year he made more money than I did in 4 years. Multiple ways to skin a cat. Glad yours paid off for you though.
I agree with Paul's purpose of this thread. Trades can be excellent money for someone who's willing to do it. Especially if they have the aptitude and interest in doing it. I don't agree with how SOME people assume my generation doesn't want to work hard or associate hard work only with trades. I truly believe we are just as hard working but more towards things we think matter, money be dammed.
chada75 said:Reading all these posts has got me looking into Plumbing classes at the local tech school. Is it a good career change for a 40 year old?
Depends on your lifestyle.
There is a minimum 2 year transition if you are gonna be licensed at anything. Probably more like 5.
Can you handle the transition? Do you have kids in college, or other large expenses that can’t be delayed?
I’d say 40 is still a good time, but you will miss some of the opportunity to maximize.
Depending on the part of the country you are in, it’s reasonable to think you could earn $25-30K out of the gate for 2 years, $35-45K for the next 3. After that, assuming you push, you can keep working it up until you are at $70 or $80K, but an additional $20- $30K per year doing side jobs is a reasonable expectation, assuming you want to run a side business. If that’s your inclination, it is reasonable to assume the side business could become a strong full time gig in 5-8 years.
Benefits are hard to come by.
In reply to yupididit :
I didn’t know your age until you made that comment.
I think it’s easy to get defensive on the issue. I also think it is easy to assume previous generations didn’t struggle with the same things.
I spent the ‘70’s trying to learn how to build an electric car, learning how to do solar, and reading the Mother Earth News. I spent 10 years as a full time volunteer with a non-profit. I learned how to make bio-diesel. I did peace protests, worked for minority equality, and cared about saving the whales.
I spent my life working hard for what mattered to me, money be damned.
Sound familiar?
I wish 20 year old me would listen a little bit to 50 year old me. My life would be better.
In reply to SVreX :
I agree with the points you made in the thread. My latest comment was in reply to a paragraph the person i replied to wrote about the safe way etc etc.
I know y'all went through the same things but sometimes I feel like the previous gens forget we gotta go through them too plus the ever changing world like the previous gen. Just speaking up.
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