I have an ulterior motive.
It's just me being lazy. If I run off the current group, I'll have to find and train more and that's hard work. It's worth several $/hr to not have to do that.
And trust me, I can be as much of an ass as anyone. There are just some times when that doesn't get you anywhere. Work is one of them.
Toyman! said:
I have an ulterior motive.
It's just me being lazy. If I run off the current group, I'll have to find and train more and that's hard work. It's worth several $/hr to not have to do that.
And trust me, I can be as much of an ass as anyone. There are just some times when that doesn't get you anywhere. Work is one of them.
My boss when I was at the towing company was like that. He took care of is and we did everything that needed to be done to keep money coming in. It was a really nice way to work. Unfortunately when he was looking towards retirement the next generation wasn't as interested in running the place like that and we had to leave. There's a lot wrong with where I am now but they never missed a paycheck because they bought too big a boat.
Toyman! said:trust me, I can be as much of an ass as anyone. There are just some times when that doesn't get you anywhere. Work is one of them.
Quoted for truth. I'm sure many here think I'm an ass and would never work for me. I have 14 employees, the longest one has been here since 1996, shortest since 2018. 10 have been here for 15 plus years. All are paid well, have benefits, profit sharing, and don't work crazy hours. We have corporate Ravens seats, Top Golf membership, and go tubing a lot during the summer work days. When Covid hit I let them know paychecks won't change, no need to stress. Not all owners are greedy jerks.
In reply to Steve_Jones :
The regional manager over 15 branches at the private equity hose place used to tell our branch manager he was too nice and needed to be a dick and treat people more harshly. There's a whole philosophy about being that way to succeed.
Datsun310Guy said:In reply to Steve_Jones :
The regional manager over 15 branches at the private equity hose place used to tell our branch manager he was too nice and needed to be a dick and treat people more harshly. There's a whole philosophy about being that way to succeed.
I don't get that at all. You treat me like E36 M3, you'll get E36 M3 back. I assume most people feel the same way, so there's no advantage for me to start it. Don't get me wrong, I have expectations, but they don't change, meet them and we all are happy and make money.
In reply to Steve_Jones :
It's a compensation thing, and I ain't talking about money.
In reply to Steve_Jones :
That depends. My self and My teams all got paid on both top line and bottom line but it wasn't a straight cut but a percentage to target plan.
Shoot, I wish mine was a straight percentage of either. My total production for my team was over $1B a year from 2017-2021 topping out just under $2B with the big deal we closed in 2020.
Duke said:In reply to Steve_Jones :
It's a compensation thing, and I ain't talking about money.
From where I'm sitting, that accomplishes the exact opposite of what they think it does.
Toyman! said:Duke said:In reply to Steve_Jones :
It's a compensation thing, and I ain't talking about money.
From where I'm sitting, that accomplishes the exact opposite of what they think it does.
Agreed. Douchebags gonna douche. But now we're getting into the whole alpha male / apex predator psychology thing, which is probably out of the reasonable bounds of this discussion.
In reply to Steve_Jones :
There's always been 2 philosophies of business. I imagine more than 2.
1. People are lazy - don't want to work. Whip them to get work done or they'll screw off all day.
2. People are hard workers - provide a good workplace and they will work really hard for you and do extra without being asked.
bobzilla said:Toyman! said:From my first full-time minimum wage job to now, my income has increased by about 2740%. I've had many different jobs, starting as a general laborer and working up to where I am today. It's been quite the adventure.
The people who work for me get annual or biannual raises as well as bonuses. The last round of raises happened this past week and worked out to about 3-5%. That's the second raise this year because of inflation. Bonuses are usually another 5%-10% bump over base pay. Over the last 8-10 years or so most of them have seen pay increases of about 35%. The guy who has been here the longest has seen his pay increase about 3 times in 16 years. Almost everyone who works for me has been here for at least 8 years. I'm not here to screw anyone and they know it. They could probably move elsewhere to a bigger company and make a little more on their base pay but I work pretty hard to keep this a good place to work. I do my best to keep it from being me vs. them and more of an all-for-one team. So far it's working. I look out for them, they look out for me.
Why do I all of a sudden want to work for you?
Ha!
I actually asked him several years ago if I could work with him!
Datsun310Guy said:In reply to Steve_Jones :
There's always been 2 philosophies of business. I imagine more than 2.
1. People are lazy - don't want to work. Whip them to get work done or they'll screw off all day.
2. People are hard workers - provide a good workplace and they will work really hard for you and do extra without being asked.
I've seen #2 turn into #1 because of bad leadership. It is like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Datsun310Guy said:In reply to Steve_Jones :
There's always been 2 philosophies of business. I imagine more than 2.
1. People are lazy - don't want to work. Whip them to get work done or they'll screw off all day.
2. People are hard workers - provide a good workplace and they will work really hard for you and do extra without being asked.
one place I worked had #3:
3. Lazy people will always be lazy so we will punish everyone instead of hte lazy ones. When that doesn't work, we'll just expect the non-lazy to get it done anyway.
In reply to johndej :
I offered a kid at Goodwill a job a while back. He had watched me get out of the truck to fix one of the doors. He showed some interest so I tried to steal him away from them. Goodwill was paying him $7.25/hr and I offered him $14/hr. He said he didn't want to work that hard.
I have been told at least 4 times in the last 6 months. "I don't want to work that hard." No one in my company works what I would call hard. They spend 50% of their time riding around in air-conditioned trucks. While there is a physical component to the job, it's not exactly hard. But many of the younger generation don't want to work that hard, even for more money.
Toyman! said:In reply to johndej :
I offered a kid at Goodwill a job a while back. He had watched me get out of the truck to fix one of the doors. He showed some interest so I tried to steal him away from them. Goodwill was paying him $7.25/hr and I offered him $14/hr. He said he didn't want to work that hard.
I have been told at least 4 times in the last 6 months. "I don't want to work that hard." No one in my company works what I would call hard. They spend 50% of their time riding around in air-conditioned trucks. While there is a physical component to the job, it's not exactly hard. But many of the younger generation don't want to work that hard, even for more money.
Different strokes. Working in retail - at least retail like Goodwill - would be much harder for me than installing and servicing hardware, even complex/heavy hardware.
And certain desk job tasks that I have are easy to do, but extremely difficult for me to actually complete. Meanwhile I can be diving straight into an Excel document or PowerBI query that requires 8 hours of dedicated attention to make/fix/etc., and I love those days. (EDIT: I've recently learned that for me, this is largely attributed to ADHD)
The fact that your example was a kid though, makes me wonder if he's doing part time and his full time job is being a student. I could see his point then. But still. Retail. Horrifying.
EDIT: I also had a similar conversation with a friend when I was in high school. Told him to come out and Caddy with me. He didn't want to work that hard. My dad had the same experience in the late 60s/early 70s driving a forklift. It definitely isn't a new phenomenon.
mtn said:Datsun310Guy said:In reply to Steve_Jones :
There's always been 2 philosophies of business. I imagine more than 2.
1. People are lazy - don't want to work. Whip them to get work done or they'll screw off all day.
2. People are hard workers - provide a good workplace and they will work really hard for you and do extra without being asked.
I've seen #2 turn into #1 because of bad leadership. It is like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
People don't leave bad jobs, they leave bad bosses.
bobzilla said:Datsun310Guy said:1. People are lazy - don't want to work. Whip them to get work done or they'll screw off all day.
2. People are hard workers - provide a good workplace and they will work really hard for you and do extra without being asked.
one place I worked had #3:
3. Lazy people will always be lazy so we will punish everyone instead of hte lazy ones. When that doesn't work, we'll just expect the non-lazy to get it done anyway.
That pretty much describes DW's former employer, in at least 3 different management ./ partnership / subsidiary configurations.
I'm forming the hypothesis that when workers start complaining loudly about wages, it's because there are major cultural problems they're unhappy about but money is the only language management understands or pays attention to.
In reply to Beer Baron :
It's also a relatively simple fix to complicated business culture issues.
Changing a baked-in management mindset is extremely difficult. Arguing about how much money it's going to take to keep people putting up with the bullE36 M3 is easy.
johndej said:
All working hard and going above and beyond ever did for me was get more responsibilities dumped on my plate with no increase in compensation, and some cases, even pay cuts. It's perfectly understandable to develop that sort of attitude when you repeatedly have those experiences.
My favorite was at Firestone, foam not tire. When I started there were 3 of us in my position, one of which immediately berkeleyed off to the break room for the whole day, every day. I was eventually fired, because after the third person left and it was me and her, she continued to berkeley off to the break room all day. Lead to me screaming at her to do her berkeleying job or quit, leads to the shift supervisor, who was her dad's best friend, screaming at me for screaming at her, leads to "if you're not going to do your job by making her do her job, maybe you should berkeleying quit too" lead to me being fired. So I went to corporate to complain, and he got a bonus.
Nevermind that for the months that took to happen, I was doing the job of 3 people by myself for the pay of 1 person.
Not even an isolated incident, happened in retail, happened in kitchens, happened in my brief period as an office drone. More than enough to destroy a work ethic, especially when they kind of piss poor management seems to be systemic across all fields.
In reply to RevRico :
All working hard and going above and beyond ever did for me was to get me more challenges to meet and succeed. I started off at the bottom, with a grade 9 education, worked my ass off, and could have retired comfortably in my 50's
Toyman! said:In reply to johndej :
I offered a kid at Goodwill a job a while back. He had watched me get out of the truck to fix one of the doors. He showed some interest so I tried to steal him away from them. Goodwill was paying him $7.25/hr and I offered him $14/hr. He said he didn't want to work that hard.
Unfortunately that's my youngest son. He's a hard worker who shows up for work every day. But now he's in a go nowhere job making low $20's/hr working 30 hrs a week, because he can. He could work 40 hours and make more money, but he doesn't. He's happy doing what he does, comfortably, knowing he'll never get fired, and that expectations from him are low. I offered to get him in where I work, he'll be making the better part of $30/hr, full time hours and it's a great place to work. Not interested.
Since he and his GF broke up, and without her income, he can no longer afford to live anywhere so he's moving back in with us.
What do you do with that?
In reply to Peabody : Well, first you charge him for room and board. And, if he has an extra 10 hours a week off, there is certainly no reason for you to be doing the grocery shopping, yard maintenance and dish washing...
In reply to Peabody :
The rule for living at my house after school is you have to have a plan for where you want to be in 1, 5, and 10 years. That plan can not be, live at home and do the minimum possible. It can be advancement at your current job, but you have to work toward some form of advancement and show effort to make that happen either through job performance or education. You have to be able to show me what you are doing to work that plan.
As long as the plan is working and you are moving forward then Dad is a great guy. He will encourage and help. He will only charge you $200 for room and board plus any expenses such as car insurance and cell phone. The minute that Dad thinks you are screwing off, Dad gets very unreasonable and charges exorbitant rent. He will also stop treating you like an adult and will treat you as a child who hasn't learned to be a productive member of society. He will make you uncomfortable enough that you want to do better and move out.
I have a 24 yo that is still at home. He has a plan. He is working the plan. I'm satisfied to let him live at home and pile up every spare dollar he can. He's at the point now that he can make a pretty sizeable downpayment on a house. Not to mention that with matching he has close to $40k in his retirement accounts. He will end up better off than me because he has a plan and is working toward it.
I also have a 19 yo at home. He is getting some slack as he gets his feet under him. A job is required but the plan doesn't have to be as long term as the elder child.
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