Afterlife?

Streetwiseguy wrote:

SkinnyG wrote: I believe in God. Without that, I think I would either give up and live gratuitously self-indulgent, or go on a shooting rampage (which is probably the same thing).

I am always a little bit frightened when I hear this answer. It implies that only the fear of punishment keeps you from anarchy.

I can see how that could be read. It is not my intent - it's my more "theatrical" side writing for "shock value." Yet I recognize that many others choose faith out of fear. I'm not interested in following a God who rules by fear. Knowing who I was as a kid (lots of anger, hostility and issues with authority) is why I paint that anarchistic picture (for shock value). I'm older now, and much more mature. Or at least one of the two.

Having kids changed my perception of God. Jesus' teachings of our "Heavenly Father" made a more personal connection with me once I was a father myself. This also opened more questions for me, questions I still work through and struggle with.

Do you believe there is an afterlife?
Not sure/no. Pretty sure we don't end up sitting on clouds playing harps or any of the other versions of afterlife commonly discussed. Beyond that, I really don't know and can't figure it out so I rarely think about it.

If so, how do you justify/prove/believe in it?
I think humans, with our inquisitive nature, need an answer so we chose to believe in something. It makes all the dead kittens easier to take. Again I can't prove any of it.

If not, how do you live day-to-day without completely breaking down?
I have thought a bit about the "meaning of life" in the last few years for the same reason you are thinking about it now. My "meaning of life" goes more internal than external. I feel like we were given a basic set of instructions through our basic instincts. We have a base need for food, shelter, reproduction, and companionship. We also have an overwhelming need to feel satisfied through completion of those actions. How we act on those instincts in the context of our societal and familial beliefs determines our level of fulfillment. Basically long term achievements are a deeper level of fulfillment. For example: making babies is fun, raising babies well is fulfilling. My service is to my family and myself. Figuring out what we really want and need is the hard part.

Thanks for all of the great discussion from both sides.

For a background, I was raised hardcore Roman Catholic (like Latin Mass and everything).

Now I'm thinking there may be some sort of collective consciousness or cyclical intelligence to us or our universe. I'm reading some Hawking right now (which is actually really interesting) and he talks about how some theories maintain time didn't even always exist. That's pretty deep!!

Javelin wrote: Do you believe there is an afterlife?

Yes. I grew up Protestant, then got out of religion. It was like a rotting tooth, it finally got drilled out of me. So I went from believing in pearly-gates-type afterlife (if I was a good boy) to not believing in an afterlife, and now I DO believe there is an afterlife, just not with St Peter as the bouncer.

If so, how do you justify/prove/believe in it?

No way to do it. I believe it, don't need to prove it, don't care if anyone else believes it.

If not, how do you live day-to-day without completely breaking down?

I've given sermons on this. One of big-religion's main things is fear. Fear God, fear His wrath, if you sin you'll go to hell. You've (I mean general "you" not necessarily Javelin) been fed this fear that there is heaven or hell, good or bad, left or right. Not believing it should make you fearful. You've been trained well.

My personality type is kinda one of those, "eh... who cares" type B. If there is an afterlife, I'll be going there. If there isn't, I'll be dead and I won't care. I'm not worried about the afterlife, I'm worried about how many lines of coke I can snort off a hookers ass before I get there. (not really... but kinda)

Going through some personal stuff with the imminent arrival of Javelin Jr, and I'm told it's normal.

I'm not a father so I can't directly speak from experience, but send me a PM if you just need an ear. I'm good at listening.

I have to correct something I said, and that others have said.

It has been implied that an afterlife is somehow a reward for "right" living, and that that is the essence of Christianity.

I played into that when I said I believe in an afterlife.

It's not true, and that is not exactly what I believe.

I believe in eternal life. It is NOT some kind of reward I get later for good behavior now.

It is a life of freedom that began when I didn't deserve it. It was in return for my BAD behavior, and I am living it NOW. Granted, I frequently don't succeed at living it too well.

The eternal life I am living is NOW, and will continue beyond when my physical existence as you see it ends.

So, it is NOT an afterlife. It is an eternal life starting NOW.

Toyman01 wrote: SVreX, I'm starting to wonder if I have an unknown older brother in GA.

You do.

Dunno, I just keep coming back.

Javelin wrote: Thanks for all of the great discussion from both sides. For a background, I was raised hardcore Roman Catholic (like Latin Mass and everything). Now I'm thinking there may be some sort of collective consciousness or cyclical intelligence to us or our universe. I'm reading some Hawking right now (which is actually really interesting) and he talks about how some theories maintain time didn't even always exist. That's pretty deep!!

I was down in the dumps a few years ago and a friend handed me a book and said "read it." I did. Cover to cover. Its called "conversations with god" by neale donald walsch. Regardless of what you think of it, the philosophy in it is REMARKABLE. Changed my life. Seriously.

SVreX wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: SVreX, I'm starting to wonder if I have an unknown older brother in GA.

You do.

But he doesn't drink beer.

curtis73 wrote:

Javelin wrote: Thanks for all of the great discussion from both sides. For a background, I was raised hardcore Roman Catholic (like Latin Mass and everything). Now I'm thinking there may be some sort of collective consciousness or cyclical intelligence to us or our universe. I'm reading some Hawking right now (which is actually really interesting) and he talks about how some theories maintain time didn't even always exist. That's pretty deep!!

I was down in the dumps a few years ago and a friend handed me a book and said "read it." I did. Cover to cover. Its called "conversations with god" by neale donald walsch. Regardless of what you think of it, the philosophy in it is REMARKABLE. Changed my life. Seriously.

Thanks for the recommendation!

Curmudgeon wrote:

SVreX wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: SVreX, I'm starting to wonder if I have an unknown older brother in GA.

You do.

But he doesn't drink beer.

Umm... you apparently haven't spent any time with me in the hotel parking lot at the Challenge.

I have no problem drinking beer. Had a couple last night with my wife. I avoid getting drunk, and I intentionally abstain when I am around friends who I know get offended by it or have problems with alcoholism.

I'd rather not be a stumbling block to others, but I see no prohibition of drinking in Scripture.

Javelin wrote: Do you believe there is an afterlife? If so, how do you justify/prove/believe in it? If not, how do you live day-to-day without completely breaking down? Looking for just a good conversation here, no need to dip into religion or try to convince anybody of one way or the other. Just trying to see what other people's (whom I respect) thoughts were on the subject. Going through some personal stuff with the imminent arrival of Javelin Jr, and I'm told it's normal. Thanks for the discussion, I may be reading this at 2AM if I don't sleep... again.

1) Nope.
2) I don't worry about things i can't control.

Javelin wrote: Thanks for all of the great discussion from both sides. For a background, I was raised hardcore Roman Catholic (like Latin Mass and everything). Now I'm thinking there may be some sort of collective consciousness or cyclical intelligence to us or our universe. I'm reading some Hawking right now (which is actually really interesting) and he talks about how some theories maintain time didn't even always exist. That's pretty deep!!

I've read "A Brief History of Time" three times, and still can't get it through my thick skull! Weird, wonderful stuff, that. If I understand it correctly, the theory is that if space & time are connected in the way Einstein thought they are, then there was no time before space existed. And of course, we (the human "we") don't have the tools yet to look at the beginning of the universe, much less beyond it. I really think not knowing such things are why people get so philosophical about life in the first place.

Me, I just take what I have, marvel at it, and just admit I might never know the answer to "Life, the Universe, and Everything".

I'm really impressed with the level of maturity being displayed here. It seems we (the GRM board) get more shouty about politics than we do about religion. I'm honestly really happy about that for some reason.

I don't beleive there is an afterlife, and I've accepted that when I die, that's it. No big deal. It really can't be that much different from going to sleep every night, just a lot longer. I'm not afraid of going to sleep, so why fear death.

As for the rest, life is fun, and it's a hell of a ride. Once you have kids, you get the most important job you've ever had: ensuring that another human being turns out to be a good person. In the beginning, it's mostly just about making sure the little guy stays fed, warm and changed. After that it gets harder, but by that time you'll probably be so invested in the job you won't mind that the hours suck, the pay is terrible and your personal life is shot.

SVreX wrote:

Curmudgeon wrote:

SVreX wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: SVreX, I'm starting to wonder if I have an unknown older brother in GA.

You do.

But he doesn't drink beer.

Umm... you apparently haven't spent any time with me in the hotel parking lot at the Challenge. I have no problem drinking beer. Had a couple last night with my wife. I avoid getting drunk, and I intentionally abstain when I am around friends who I know get offended by it or have problems with alcoholism. I'd rather not be a stumbling block to others, but I see no prohibition of drinking in Scripture.

Dood. Never saw you quaff one in '06. I figured you were a teetotaler. OK, then next time I see you I buy you a beer!

In reply to Javelin:

May I recommend one? The Holy Bible. Directed by the hand of God Himself. It has changed my life and many others I've witnessed in my lifetime. People may doubt God, but you can't doubt the change in people's lives. This book get's twisted around every which way, which makes you think. If its not real, why is there such a fight to get rid of it all these generations?

Brett_Murphy wrote: I'm really impressed with the level of maturity being displayed here. It seems we (the GRM board) get more shouty about politics than we do about religion. I'm honestly really happy about that for some reason.

Politics is not beyond us. We actually have some say in what happens to this country and can theoretically influence it.

The fundamental nature of the universe is not something that will change by altering what other people believe it is (unless it can).

Also, what someone else believes in religious terms does not really impact someone else. It's not like, if someone is a Taoist that means their trying to get you to pay more taxes, cut services that help you, or start/end a war somewhere.

Taiden wrote: I don't believe that humans can be trusted to speak about God. So that throws all organized religion out the window for me. That said, everything I've ever come across in life works in a sinusoidal fashion. Nothing ever randomly appears out of nothing. Nothing ever completely disappears into nothing. Everything always occurs in a cycle that is never ending. When talking about seasons, spring is just as much the end of winter as it is the beginning of summer. In this way, I also believe that birth is just as much the ending of death, as it is the beginning of life. And it is such that I believe that the sum total of 'spirit', whatever this may be, is constant and shared. Recycled and reused for all of eternity.

Well said.

If you get the opportunity, I recommend reading "The Tao of Physics". It is much more about quantum physics than it is about philosophy or theology, but it does a good job of connecting how certain philosophical models work better for understanding physics.

Javelin asks the exact same question that Job did..."If a man dies, shall he live again?" Job 14:14.

Luke 16:19-31. The Parable of the Rich Man “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[d] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ 27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

THE GOOD NEWS: John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[a] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I believe the sugar and spice that I'm made of will just become something else after I die. Probably something much cooler than I ver will be. I will just have to wait and see what happens. If there is an afterlife I hope I come back as something fast like a Cheetah.

Javelin wrote:

curtis73 wrote:

Javelin wrote: Now I'm thinking there may be some sort of collective consciousness or cyclical intelligence to us or our universe.

I was down in the dumps a few years ago and a friend handed me a book and said "read it." I did. Cover to cover. Its called "conversations with god" by neale donald walsch. Regardless of what you think of it, the philosophy in it is REMARKABLE. Changed my life. Seriously.

Thanks for the recommendation!

Sure! The reason I recommended it was because it specifically talks about that collective consciousness, or universal energy and how our souls are part of it.

I personally believe there is an afterlife because I get visited by probably 50 souls a day on the average if I'm in an emotional place to receive them. I studied with a wonderful psychic couple for several years and they took me to new levels of consciousness I never dreamed possible.

Its hard to not believe in an afterlife when you've had conversations with Thomas Lincoln, your dead grandfather, and Queen Mary. John Wayne often times comes to our group sessions.

There are so many more dimensions than the four we fathom on a daily basis, or the three that the bible describes. Most humans (myself included) don't really have the thinkage capacity to really get it, but people like Stephen Hawking sure do.

I got tired of organized religion's methods to make you stop thinking, how you can only ask so many questions before it falls back on "faith." Once I started fathoming what could be instead of what was force-fed to me, that's when my faith in God became so strong. Its like I was playing that game where you wear a blindfold and try to guess what is in your hand, or later asked to draw a map of the room you were in. Once you take the blindfold off you're like "Oooohhhh, I get it." Same way when I got away from the business of organized religion. The blindfolds came off. Once that happens, the universe bombards you with reinforcement that you're finally on the right path. All of a sudden it was like God (who used to be this distant, angry murderer and torturer) became my best pal and put his arm around my shoulders and said, "welcome back, kiddo."

Basically, what I believe is that God is absolutely nothing like how he's portrayed in religious texts. In fact, what I believe is god (the universal energy) is probably the same thing that scientists are studying right now with their better grasp of the universe. In fact, that which I call god, Atheists probably call it "dark matter" or just "energy." I just have found evidence that this energy carries with it a lot more consciousness due to how it connects with us and everything else.

Fletch1 wrote: In reply to Javelin: May I recommend one? The Holy Bible.

The best way to become an Atheist is to read the Bible cover to cover.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

Fletch1 wrote: In reply to Javelin: May I recommend one? The Holy Bible.

The best way to become an Atheist is to comprehend the Bible cover to cover.

Fixed it for ya.

In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker:

May I ask why one would become an Atheist after reading the Bible? I have tought Sunday school for 6 years now and the more I study, the more it all lines up and it amazes me.