Afterlife?

In reply to curtis73:

I've read some of your posts before along the lines of God/faith and all that. We differ greatly, but I am also against "religion". I'm sorry you have looked at God as being an angry torturer. He's never been like that. According the scripture, we failed Him (See Genesis 3). From that point in time, He provided the solution to sin, being when Christ would come to be the sacrificial offering for OUR sin. He became flesh just like us and took OUR punishment. If that's not love, not sure what is. Before He came to earth in our flesh, the Old Testament law was our tutor, to show us what sin is and to benefit us. Thou shalt steal for example. God doesn't want us to go steal someone elses stuff and to see all the pain and suffering as a result from that. It's us who go our own way and we don't want to listen. We are disobedient children. God wants the best for all people.

as I mentioned earlier I do believe... it's apparent that many on this forum don't .... I don't condemn the non-believers ... not my place to... plus I don't try to get all kinds of evangelical and try to change your way of thinking... I probably can't in person and I surly can't here on this forum...

I've said all that to say this... for the first page and a half this thread was as civil as any potentially contentious subject discussed on this forum ... ever ... but it is looking like it's trying to take a turn into the area of ... HOW CAN YOU NOT THINK THE WAY I DO ... oh well it has been fun reading for a while

I wish you the best Javelin when the little one comes and hope you find the answer.

Read "Heaven Is For Real". written by Todd Burpo. I do belive in an afterlife.

Javelin wrote: Do you believe there is an afterlife? If so, how do you justify/prove/believe in it? If not, how do you live day-to-day without completely breaking down? Looking for just a good conversation here, no need to dip into religion or try to convince anybody of one way or the other. Just trying to see what other people's (whom I respect) thoughts were on the subject. Going through some personal stuff with the imminent arrival of Javelin Jr, and I'm told it's normal. Thanks for the discussion, I may be reading this at 2AM if I don't sleep... again.

I'm a Deist. If there is an afterlife, it is some sort of deal where the electromagnetic energy that makes up our consciousness continues on.

Why would I break down? I do my best to live this life that I KNOW I have. The classic definition of an afterlife was simply a combination of denial and church/government corruption, in my opinion. They kept the peasants in line with "hope."

All I know about the Afterlife, I learned from the Squirrel Nut Zippers

SNZ were/are great!

Another godless heathen here. I'm done when I breathe my last, so I'm leaving nothing on the table.

What I have to offer is the actual experience of my dad - also an atheist - who happened to have died about 15 years ago. Several times, actually.

He had a motherberkeleyer of a series of heart attacks one rainy Saturday in the mid-80's, and while in the CCU went full-on flat line. The machine went "beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee..." And they commenced with the CPR and the defibrillatin' and all that TV code blue stuff. Eventually, after attempting to defibrillate repeatedly with the thing turned to 11, the attending was ready to call it. A very nice CCU nurse made a case to try one more time. She said she had a hunch. They applied the paddles one more time, and I was told by the nurse, and the attending, independently, that Dad opened his eyes and hollered:

"Oh sh1t, you don't have to jump start me again!"

At which point he flat lined a second time. Heartened by the progress they redoubled their efforts and eventually he was in sinus rhythm. he made it through the night and the ensuing decades.

About the experience he has this to say:

"Those people who say that when you die there's a white light and angels singing are full of sh1t. It's the blackest black you can possibly imagine. There's absolutely nothing there."

So, I expected that to be the case anyway - but he has done some empirical study and these are his findings. Just sayin'.

In reply to motomoron:

If it is all over when you're dead, then there's not even black.

Count me in with all the other Christians in the thread. I feel like some people are misinterpreting the failures of people as the failures of a belief system, but the internet is a pretty inadequate avenue for evangelism and I'm just not that guy.

There are no pearly gates, there are no people in robes playing harps or winged children. God is not a bearded old man. Christianity doesn't hold that foolish idea as Heaven, popular culture does.

One thing is for sure, 1 out of every 1 will die. What we don't know is...when.

I'm not sure, I get the feeling your "spirit" or whatever hangs around. But I don't believe in God.

WIth the myriad of other things there are to stress about in daily life, I try not to think about it too much.

I just don't want to find out for a LLOOOOONNNNGG time.

Fletch1 wrote: In reply to Javelin: May I recommend one? The Holy Bible. Directed by the hand of God Himself. It has changed my life and many others I've witnessed in my lifetime. People may doubt God, but you can't doubt the change in people's lives. This book get's twisted around every which way, which makes you think. If its not real, why is there such a fight to get rid of it all these generations?

You missed the raised Roman Catholic part. I went to Catholic school for 14 years, and was a Reader at 2 masses weekly for like 6 of them. I'm pretty familiar with it. Good book, too.

MG Bryan wrote: God is not a bearded old man.

I really want to believe that God is like the kid in his room making a chicken cartoon Gary Larson did of him.

As in the big man / collective consciousness / all-knowing has a sense of humor.

Fletch1 wrote: In reply to curtis73: I've read some of your posts before along the lines of God/faith and all that. We differ greatly, but I am also against "religion". I'm sorry you have looked at God as being an angry torturer. He's never been like that. According the scripture, we failed Him (See Genesis 3). From that point in time, He provided the solution to sin, being when Christ would come to be the sacrificial offering for OUR sin. He became flesh just like us and took OUR punishment. If that's not love, not sure what is. Before He came to earth in our flesh, the Old Testament law was our tutor, to show us what sin is and to benefit us. Thou shalt steal for example. God doesn't want us to go steal someone elses stuff and to see all the pain and suffering as a result from that. It's us who go our own way and we don't want to listen. We are disobedient children. God wants the best for all people.

To honor the original poster's request, we shouldn't get into debates on religion, but just know that I respect your faith and your devotion, I just don't share it.

But... the bible is FULL of vengeful, hateful, killing god references... in His own words, in fact. Ezekiel 25:17, Nahum 1:2, Deut 32:35, Isaiah 47:3, ... for goodness sake, he killed everyone except Noah's family in Genesis... the same book that talks all about how he created the universe.

But, your opinion and offerings are valuable to the original poster since he did ask for all walks of life and I'm glad you're here to offer the biblical perspective.

Fletch1 wrote: One thing is for sure, 1 out of every 1 will die. What we don't know is...when.

Hope I have a cold beer when I go

Javelin wrote:

MG Bryan wrote: God is not a bearded old man.

I *really* want to believe that God is like the kid in his room making a chicken cartoon Gary Larson did of him. As in the big man / collective consciousness / all-knowing has a sense of humor.

Unlike Gary Larson's attorneys.

curtis73 wrote: But... the bible is FULL of vengeful, hateful, killing god references... in His own words, in fact. Ezekiel 25:17, Nahum 1:2, Deut 32:35, Isaiah 47:3, ... for goodness sake, he killed everyone except Noah's family in Genesis... the same book that talks all about how he created the universe.

Come on, Curtis. You can't close the door on religious input with a comment like that.

Fletch1 said God is not an "angry torturer". This is true.

Your response claiming that He is a vengeful, hateful killing god is not.

NONE of your references are about hate.

They DO reference the word vengeance, but that is quite different than being vengeful. The context is that He avenges wrongdoing (for purification), not that He is vengeful because he is angry, hateful, or a torturer.

I'm sorry you have had negative experiences, but your comments are an inaccurate representation.

In reply to Fletch1:

You asked how somebody who has read (and understood) the bible can still reject what it says. You also state that the Judeo-Christian god wants the best for all people.

You've rectified some important questions that many people have when they read the bible and incorporated them into your faith.

For me, the real question in that is if salvation only comes through Jesus, what happened to all of the people before that? Were they not good enough to be saved? Why punish people for being... well, people? If god is omniscient, he had to know we were going to eat the fruit- that is a rookie, first time parent mistake. Free will is a thing like that, and all children learn what not to do by doing. Heck, the entity known as satan was called the Adversary not because he fell and was working against god, but because god had set him to that task.

So much changed in the Council of Nicea it isn't funny. So much before that was lost in translation it isn't funny.

More importantly, why design such a rigged, broken system in the first place?

Additionally, how can different cultures all claim to be exactly and perfectly right about their gods being the only correct and true ones, etc. Popularity doesn't equal truth or quality among humans, I have only to point to Kei$ha to show that to be a fallacy. So who is right? Is everybody right? Who can say?

I was never able to answer these questions. More to the point, I will never be able to. Perhaps the message has had too much noise put into it by human authors, perhaps I'm missing the part of the brain that enables belief, I have no idea.

I'll just try to be a good person and a good father to my kids. Some days I'll do a good job at both, some days I'll fail. No matter what, though, it's on me and my responsibility. That and the fact I only get one shot at it makes me want to strive to do the best job I can.

If I'm wrong about everything (and who knows, I've been wrong about enough before) I'll certainly be surprised.

I agree that we should stick to the original questions of "do you believe in an afterlife? why/why not?"

Let's stop the conversations on the relative merits/flaws of Christianity/The Bible now. I have my own critiques of them, but don't feel like it's going to do any good. Maybe you want to answer why you disagree/agree with the Christian idea of the afterlife, but let's leave out the bigger issue of Christianity/Christians/The Bible.

Fletch1 wrote: One thing is for sure, 1 out of every 1 will die. What we don't know is...when.

As much as I disagree with you about the religious stuff sir..on this point, you're absolutely right. We all go out in a "single bed" eventually..

friedgreencorrado wrote:

Fletch1 wrote: One thing is for sure, 1 out of every 1 will die. What we don't know is...when.

As much as I disagree with you about the religious stuff sir..on this point, you're absolutely right. We all go out in a "single bed" eventually..

Every man dies. Not every man really lives.

Salanis wrote:

friedgreencorrado wrote:

Fletch1 wrote: One thing is for sure, 1 out of every 1 will die. What we don't know is...when.

As much as I disagree with you about the religious stuff sir..on this point, you're absolutely right. We all go out in a "single bed" eventually..

Every man dies. Not every man really lives.

Most emphatically agreed..with the caveat that the belief in an "afterlife" isn't always the reason people reject real life. Yes, some are doing entirely too many mental gymnastics over what their post-reality "experience" might be like..but there are many others (regardless of their level of theism) who are simply too fearful, or too apathetic to just get up and start living, instead of watching it go by.

SVreX wrote: Come on, Curtis. You can't close the door on religious input with a comment like that. Fletch1 said God is not an "angry torturer". This is true. Your response claiming that He is a vengeful, hateful killing god is not.

First of all, I didn't close any door. I thanked Fletch for his input and told him I was glad he was here for the OP. But since you asked...

GOD wrote: And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel: and they shall do in Edom according to mine anger and according to my fury; and they shall know my vengeance, saith the Lord GOD. And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them. God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies. And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. And the LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter

I could list thousands of these. I'm an ordained minister, so I might have studied a bit. The bottom line is if you're going to be a fundamentalist Christian and you read the words "I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh" how can that not be interpreted as God being a mass murderer of his own creation?

Do I believe in an afterlife? Yes, no, I don't know. I lean to yes from one very specific instance. Overall it doesn't matter that much what I believe. It is very difficult to either prove or disprove. One doesn't often hear from those that have gone before. Those that do claim to have talked to the spirits are often decried as charlatans or are thought to have hallucinated or imagined their experiences. Thus some would dismiss Curtis' experiences out of hand. I don't know. I can't know, because I have not had his experiences. I can only form my opinion on what I believe to be true. But, why not? After all. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Iv'e already half answered the second, but I cannot prove what I believe. Neither can I justify my beliefs, because part of my belief is that everyone is correct in their belief. Also though noone is correct either. If God is infinite and unknowable then no mere human can possibly fully understand and comprehend God, for if they did then they would be, well, God. And for Atheists, if there is no god and all that is is the physical world, okay Atheists may be completely correct for themselves; except I do believe in divinity, therefore they are not correct in their belief for everyone. I also really like what Taiden has had to say. How this multiverse has come to be probably doesn't much matter. Was it an unknowable entity that simply said "Let there be light.", or maybe some scientist in a separate reality that was doing an experiment to better understand his existence and simply pushed a button while saying "Let's see what this'll do?" Does it make any effective difference which of those are more valid? I believe as I do for after much study of different religions and philosophies; I have chosen those ideas that work for me.

I can live day-to-day and not break down because I don't know what will happen in the afterlife if there is one. Will I go to Heaven or Hell? Will I return to the Universal Consciousness to impart what I have learned to the whole? Maybe, reincarnate until my Karmic balance has stabilized and my Dharma is fulfilled so that I may advance to Nirvana? Will I just cease? I don't know and that is one of the great curiosities. This life is a great adventure to satisfy that curiosity. May as well have some patience to have the question answered and enjoy the ride along the way.

I do not follow any one religion, because which person or people can truly speak for God? The first Council of Nicea did in 325CE when they separated what would be gospel from the apocrypha. The Deuteronomists did around 500BCE when the Torah was first written from the oral histories. If humanity has free will then those men could have chosen incorrectly what is the true word of God, unless you're a Calvinist, then it doesn't matter what I claim to believe, for I'm predestined to have believed it anyway and I'm automatically saved or damned. While this only helps explain why I don't follow a specific Abrahamic religion similar statements could said for other religious groupings, too. So, again I don't know, now. It sure will be nifty to find out though. Until then I can wait and try to be good people.

GOD wrote: And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel: and they shall do in Edom according to mine anger and according to my fury; and they shall know my vengeance, saith the Lord GOD. And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them. God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies. And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. And the LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter

Ezekiel 25:17

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmvnXKRfdb8