Afterlife?

Fletch1 wrote: Although I still haven't even driven a Miata yet. Are they really the answer?

Beer is the answer.

What is the question?

Salanis wrote:

Fletch1 wrote: Although I still haven't even driven a Miata yet. Are they really the answer?

Beer is the answer. What is the question?

Both of these are a gobble-dy-gook free path to enlightenment. The best part- I can prove they exist (in three dimensions, no less!)

Brief hijack - happy birthday Salanis, you are correct, beer is the answer - back to your regular discussion....

Are animals included in the afterlife discussion? Do they have "souls"? Will they have an afterlife? Insects, arachnids...?

In response to the original question -

Yes, I believe there is an afterlife. And I believe this simply because I feel there is a part of me that is separate from my physical meat and bones.

oldtin wrote: Are animals included in the afterlife discussion? Do they have "souls"? Will they have an afterlife? Insects, arachnids...?

There's what I would consider legitimate disagreement on the matter. Animals do not have free will. Therefore, whether they exist or do not exist in the afterlife has nothing to do with where we end up. It isn't part of revealed truth, and anything I say is speculation.

I would tend to follow Aquinas' view that animals have mortal souls (as opposed to our immortal souls) that cease to be upon death.

However, my wife, observing that there will be a new heaven and a new earth, and that every good gift comes from God, thinks that they'll be present because their existence is a good.

Otto Maddox wrote: In response to the original question - Yes, I believe there is an afterlife. And I believe this simply because I feel there is a part of me that is separate from my physical meat and bones.

Yet, you would not fully be you without your meat and bones...

oldtin wrote: Are animals included in the afterlife discussion? Do they have "souls"? Will they have an afterlife?

Shhhh... don't tell anyone but we are actually animals. Not delicious ones like lambs or pigs... but animals nonetheless.

Just came across this on bookface regarding Juan Diego's tilna (image of Our Lady of Guadalupe): http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/our_lady_of_guadalupe_completely_beyond_scientific_explanation_says_researcher/

scardeal wrote: There's what I would consider legitimate disagreement on the matter. Animals do not have free will. Therefore, whether they exist or do not exist in the afterlife has nothing to do with where we end up. It isn't part of revealed truth, and anything I say is speculation.

How do you figure that animals do not have free will? There seems to be more and more evidence that some animals like Dolphins and Elephants have intelligence comparable to humans. Elephants visit graveyards and caress the bones of other elephants that have died. They know elephant bones from others and seem to treat them with reverence. They seem aware of their own mortality. Dolphins seem to understand abstract concepts and communicate and coordinate with each other.

It seems to me that an animal has more free will than a human baby. Why would a baby have a soul, but an elephant not? Do people born with severe mental retardation have souls?

SVreX wrote: I agree about faith creeping into my politics and laws. But I also know I have a Constitutionally protected right to freely practice my faith, and I am bothered when it is compromised because people don't want "faith in their politics and laws". There is a balance.

Totally. When the extremists on both sides are profoundly unhappy, you're probably doing it right.

Back on topic: As noted, I'd be thrilled if there was an afterlife. I just can't let the promise of eternal reward/punishment dictate how I'm living my life right now.

(edit: I didn't ignore the other responses to what I posted, thanks for those. I'm afraid the thread might get messy if we start out on apologetics of belief vs. non-belief)

As for kids being believers or non-believers, I am hoping that I'm raising kids who will have the sense of wonder, strength of will and clarity of intellect to make whatever choice they decide is best.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Shhhh... don't tell anyone but we are actually animals. Not delicious ones like lambs or pigs... but animals nonetheless.

Shhhh... don't tell anyone, but we are actually not animals. We have free will and a rational soul, they do not. There's more to us than just standing on our two feet and having opposable thumbs.

Salanis wrote:

scardeal wrote: There's what I would consider legitimate disagreement on the matter. Animals do not have free will. Therefore, whether they exist or do not exist in the afterlife has nothing to do with where we end up. It isn't part of revealed truth, and anything I say is speculation.

How do you figure that animals do not have free will? There seems to be more and more evidence that some animals like Dolphins and Elephants have intelligence comparable to humans. Elephants visit graveyards and caress the bones of other elephants that have died. They know elephant bones from others and seem to treat them with reverence. They seem aware of their own mortality. Dolphins seem to understand abstract concepts and communicate and coordinate with each other. It seems to me that an animal has more free will than a human baby. Why would a baby have a soul, but an elephant not? Do people born with severe mental retardation have souls?

This +1000

In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker: Just eggin' on the discussion...

I'm fairly convinced my great pyrenees has plenty of free will.

scardeal wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Shhhh... don't tell anyone but we are actually animals. Not delicious ones like lambs or pigs... but animals nonetheless.

Shhhh... don't tell anyone, but we are actually not animals. We have free will and a rational soul, they do not. There's more to us than just standing on our two feet and having opposable thumbs.

Maybe in magic land where you live but in the one where the DNA of a pig is close enough to ours to save your ass with an organ transplant we are so close as to make one marvel with the reverence one might normally hold for the appearance of the holy mother in a piece of toast.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Shhhh... don't tell anyone but we are actually animals. Not delicious ones like lambs or pigs... but animals nonetheless.

Don't speak too soon. Apparently, humans taste like bacon: http://www.wired.com/table_of_malcontents/2006/11/robot_identifie/

Salanis wrote: How do you figure that animals do not have free will? There seems to be more and more evidence that some animals like Dolphins and Elephants have intelligence comparable to humans. ... Dolphins seem to understand abstract concepts and communicate and coordinate with each other.

How do you figure they do? They do what they're trained to do. Free will involves being able to choose the good, even if it is not the "natural" thing to do. By your definition, a computer might be considered to have "free will." It can do lots of impressive things, but it cannot chose freely.

It seems to me that an animal has more free will than a human baby. Why would a baby have a soul, but an elephant not? Do people born with severe mental retardation have souls?

Because a baby is human. Because people with severe mental retardation are human. Because an elephant is not a human.

oldtin wrote: I'm fairly convinced my great pyrenees has plenty of free will.

I'm quite convinced my in-laws' great pyrenees have plenty of instinct, not free will.

I'm honestly flat-out amazed that anyone would descend to putting animals on the same level as humans.

scardeal wrote: I'm honestly flat-out amazed that anyone would descend to putting animals on the same level as humans.

I am not sure it is the exact same level. For instance, I doubt all the involved posters are vegetarians.

scardeal wrote:

Salanis wrote: How do you figure that animals do not have free will? There seems to be more and more evidence that some animals like Dolphins and Elephants have intelligence comparable to humans. ... Dolphins seem to understand abstract concepts and communicate and coordinate with each other.

How do you figure they do? They do what they're trained to do. Free will involves being able to choose the good, even if it is not the "natural" thing to do.

We do what we're trained to do. I know of an experiment where trainers taught dolphins a simple language involving primarily symbols, or something along those lines. They told the dolphins to come up with a series of tricks on their own. Something like 3 dolphins took a bit, dove, and came up doing some new trick they had not been trained to do, in unison. They did not practice before doing this. This was not a trick they were directed to do, but one they had to come up with and communicate to each other.

Many apes show examples of caring. I remember a video of a kid in England who fell into a gorilla enclosure at a zoo. The alpha gorilla came out, checked on the kid, and protected the kid from any of the other gorillas in the enclosure, even defending him against a younger, aggressive gorilla. The alpha male led his pack into their cages so that the zoo-keepers could come down and see to the kid in safety.

"Choosing the good" is a very abstract concept. Morality and "good" are not even agreed upon by all humans. Seems like trying to get all animals to agree would be tough.

I imagine that ancient hunter-gatherer humans had no more concept of morality than gorillas do. Did humans not have souls before language?

scardeal wrote: Because a baby is human. Because people with severe mental retardation are human. Because an elephant is not a human.

So... is the distinction just human/not human? Does it have nothing to do with intelligence, creativity, or emotion?

I'm not saying they're on "the same level". I'm not sure they're lower, but I would say they are different. I'm just saying that, if we believe in some form of a soul, I think animals have something as well. I think that if humans have a soul that continues after death, our soul existed before birth (or even conception). If animals have a soul, I think it does not start and end confined by the time they are alive. Perhaps it's a different form of soul than a human one.

scardeal wrote:

Salanis wrote: How do you figure that animals do not have free will? There seems to be more and more evidence that some animals like Dolphins and Elephants have intelligence comparable to humans. ... Dolphins seem to understand abstract concepts and communicate and coordinate with each other.

How do you figure they do? They do what they're trained to do. Free will involves being able to choose the good, even if it is not the "natural" thing to do. By your definition, a computer might be considered to have "free will." It can do lots of impressive things, but it cannot chose freely.

It seems to me that an animal has more free will than a human baby. Why would a baby have a soul, but an elephant not? Do people born with severe mental retardation have souls?

Because a baby is human. Because people with severe mental retardation are human. Because an elephant is not a human.

humans in bondage do what they're trained to do... animals in the wild do what humans do - well, except their smart enough not to get caught up on facebook.

scardeal wrote:

Salanis wrote: How do you figure that animals do not have free will? There seems to be more and more evidence that some animals like Dolphins and Elephants have intelligence comparable to humans. ... Dolphins seem to understand abstract concepts and communicate and coordinate with each other.

How do you figure they do? They do what they're trained to do. Free will involves being able to choose the good, even if it is not the "natural" thing to do. By your definition, a computer might be considered to have "free will." It can do lots of impressive things, but it cannot chose freely.

It seems to me that an animal has more free will than a human baby. Why would a baby have a soul, but an elephant not? Do people born with severe mental retardation have souls?

Because a baby is human. Because people with severe mental retardation are human. Because an elephant is not a human.

Untrained dolphins have been observed helping humans. It has also been observed they possibly have a full understanding of what murder is and have committed it. I will search for the notes on this later. I'm on android and working at the moment.

scardeal wrote: I'm honestly flat-out amazed that anyone would descend to putting animals on the same level as humans.

I'm amazed that people think their existence is superior to animals/plants.

We all share the same energy on the same planet. Being that humans are much more capable of killing ourselves and destroying complete species of animals for purely selfish reasons tells me we are inferior

Salanis wrote: I imagine that ancient hunter-gatherer humans had no more concept of morality than gorillas do. Did humans not have souls before language?

Humans have always had immortal souls. Even someone in a vegetative state, or a zygote who has just been conceived has an immortal soul. (My wife and I recently buried our miscarried baby.) What kind of soul something has is not dependent, per se, on that particular thing's intelligence or non-intelligence. It's dependent on whether it is a rational being or not. Humans are rational soul-body beings. God, angels and demons are rational spiritual beings. Nothing else that we know of has a rational soul.

Humans can train computers to "learn" and "discover" on their own. Heck, look at Google or Watson. They're even making software that can "compose" music. It's still doing what it's programmed to do. Animals work on instinct and whatever training we may give them.