Alabama's immigration law

fast_eddie_72 wrote:

93EXCivic wrote: Correct me if I am wrong but I thought that was already a law. Why does it need to be rewritten?

Not that it's on topic, but I have a problem with that too. I bought and paid for a car. I bought and paid for a registration. I did what was required to get a license. If you suspect I do not have a license, it should be on you to prove it, not on me to prove I have complied with the law. Innocent until proven guilty. And you guys thought I was so liberal. I have a big load of Libertarian ideas rattling around in my head. It's weird that everyone who calls themself a Libertarian shares so few of my views.

You're driving a vehicle, doing something illegal and then get pulled over. Without a license, why would you expect anyone to believe you're the lawful owner/operator instead of a thief, drug runner, or maybe even an illegal alien?

Libertarian or liberal is one thing, rational is another.

It sounds as if a police officer or anyone else for that matter would have to prove you didn't have a license or you could act as if you do?

carguy123 wrote: Libertarian or liberal is one thing, rational is another. It sounds as if a police officer or anyone else for that matter would have to prove you didn't have a license or you could act as if you do?

That is how it works... if he had a pretty good idea that I didn't have one he'd arrest me and then the prosecution would have to prove in a court of law that I had committed the crime - just like speeding or capital murder.

Salanis wrote: So, your tail light is busted or you're going 45 in a 35 zone. Cop pulls you over... You shouldn't have to produce your license? He should have to prove that you don't have one?

oldsaw wrote: You're driving a vehicle, doing something illegal and then get pulled over. Without a license, why would you expect anyone to believe you're the lawful owner/operator instead of a thief, drug runner, or maybe even an illegal alien?

You guys are assuming I did something illegal. People get pulled over every day witout having done anything wrong. It's only happend to me once, and before that I'd have probably said it doesn't really happen. But it does. And I would think especially so if you're a minority.

To your point, I agree it isn't practical. But think about this- have you ever run out to the store and realized you forgot your wallet? I have. I've never been pulled over in that situation, but it certainly is possible I could be. Now, again, I understand we have to draw a line somewhere between ideal and practical. In a practical world, yes, we probably have to put up with the law that says you have to have your license with you. But we should put up with it, aware of the fact that it is an infringement on our liberty. It may be an infringement we're all willing to live with, but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that it is an infringement. Not to repeat a cliche, but it is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty.

Here's what I don't like. Government is supposed to govern because we have given them authority to govern in was we've agreed are best for all of us. Does anyone feel like that's how it's done? When a officer pulls you over, you should feel like everything is okay, not wonder what you're going to be hit with.

So, back to our scenario above. I run to the store and realize I forgot my wallet. On the way home to get it, I get pulled over. The officer asks for my license, registration and insurance card. I give him the registration and insurance card and explain that I left my wallet at home. We're a half mile from the house. Wouldn't you like to live in a world where an officer looks at the insurnace card, the registration and the report he got back from the plate, sees that they're all in the same name and I live nearby and simply asks my name? I give the right answer and he says "don't forget your wallet next time". Isn't that how it should be?

Or, back to reality - the incident that actually happened to me. I wasn't doing anything illegal. Got pulled over, produced my license, registration and a computer print out of my insurance confirmation. Shouldn't that be enough? Are we happy about our country being in a state where I have to take time from work and go to the courthouse to prove what the officer allready knew? When you buy a car and insure it, do you leave it parked until the card arrives in the mail? I'm pretty sure I didn't do anything that practically 100% of car owners have done at some point - something that officer himslef has almost certainly done.

In my opinion, we're giving our government a lot of power to legally harrass us. I didn't go to jail or have to pay a fine. But I was still treated as if I had done something wrong when I hadn't. I just hit the wrong cop on the wrong day. He didn't like the look of the car, or something. Or the last guy he pulled over said something that ticked him off. Who knows? But I don't much like how it worked out.

And - back to the subject at hand - I am not in favor of anything that gives them any more power to do so. And what really bothers me is it's not the people who have the power who are clammoring to do it, it's regular people saying "yes, I want to compromise more of my liberty". Now that's really a shame. At the very least, I would hope people would say "I'm not crazy about this, but I think it needs to be done". I could understand that opinion. I have a very hard time understanding people who think it's no big deal.

The one that bothered me even more was when I got pulled over in the Celica because the damn dealer didn't send me a title. I had a bill of sale, insurance card, and my license and still had to put up with an officer telling me I was lucky he didn't take my car. Really? The car that I just showed you the bill of sale for? The property I own and paid for? I'm LUCKY that you allow me to keep it?

Think about it. I went to the DMV and told them the situation. I couldn't register the car. I tried, but wasn't allowed to. Yes, it's my problem. But shoudn't my government be able to help me with that problem, rather than being the problem? Why do we pay them to do that? When I asked the woman at the DMV what she thought I shoud do, she looked at me like I had two heads. "I don't know. You have to have a title". Thanks a lot. How hard would it be to have someone who can look at my bill of sale, maybe make a call to the dealership in CA I bought it from, run a stolen vehicle report, conclude that I own the car and get me a CO title? Why is it unreasonable to expect my government that I give authority to and pay taxes to support to have some ability to help me with a simple problem?

I bought a car. I paid for it. I had proof I paid for it. I tried to register it. And that's what I get? That's what we've built? This is the land of the free? I'm lucky they didn't take my car?

Wow. You guys can be content with that America. I'm not. And there is ZERO chance I'm giving them any more means of harrassing people.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: That is how it works... if he had a pretty good idea that I didn't have one he'd arrest me and then the prosecution would have to prove in a court of law that I had committed the crime - just like speeding or capital murder.

That's the point- I could have one, but I'd be arrested and have to go to court. It seems like we're making it way to easy to get arrested and go to court even if we haven't done anything illegal (other than not having our documents). I run out without my wallet and I can end up being arrested. You're okay with that?

He, he. I'm okay now.

Looks like I got a little fired up. Sorry.

fast_eddie_72 wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: That is how it works... if he had a pretty good idea that I didn't have one he'd arrest me and then the prosecution would have to prove in a court of law that I had committed the crime - just like speeding or capital murder.

That's the point- I could have one, but I'd be arrested and have to go to court. It seems like we're making it way to easy to get arrested and go to court even if we haven't done anything illegal (other than not having our documents). I run out without my wallet and I can end up being arrested. You're okay with that?

You are asking me that question? Did you read the rest of this thread?

In reply to fast_eddie_72:

I like it when you get fired up. You aren't mean about it and it is entertaining.

I have been hassled for not having my license.. and no, I was nowhere near my car.

It was around 11pm on a nice night and I wanted to go for a walk. I had some old clothes to go to the salvation army and their box was about a mile away.

So I grabbed the bag, and went out. Dropped it off at the box with problems and on the way back, had a cop pull up next to me and ask what I was doing out at midnight. I told him the truth and he asked to see my license. When I told him I didn't have my wallet on me.... well, it seemed like EVERY cop in my small town showed up. I literally had 5 cars there in less than 5 minutes.

Never did find out why he even asked me what I was doing out that late.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

carguy123 wrote: Libertarian or liberal is one thing, rational is another. It sounds as if a police officer or anyone else for that matter would have to prove you didn't have a license or you could act as if you do?

That is how it works... if he had a pretty good idea that I didn't have one he'd arrest me and then the prosecution would have to prove in a court of law that I had committed the crime - just like speeding or capital murder.

That goes back to the rational part of my other response. Can you imagine the expense of a system like that?!?

The net effect is that no one would have one and then what do you do about the illegals. Oh wait, I know. Just make them legal.

Make everything legal while we are at it. Including murder and rape. I mean if we are going to be liberal, let's be truly liberal.

NO, there needs to be some lines drawn in the sand for society to function. Carrying a license when you drive is one of those no-brainer things.

And I've been stopped multiple times w/o my license and been told to make sure I carry it from now on.

mad_machine wrote: ...had a cop pull up next to me and ask what I was doing out at midnight....

This is the part where my smart-ass mouth always gets me in trouble. Cops never like answers like "If it was any of your berkeleying business I'd have called you to tell you".

Why yes... I have had to be picked up at the station before. Why do you ask? The charge was underage drinking, which was like a made up crime for smartass 18yr olds who were walking around with a quart of Genessee in PA in 1986. (PA changed the legal age to 21 like... oh... 6 mos before I turned 18 and nobody really cared how old you were yet).

carguy123 wrote: Make everything legal while we are at it. Including murder and rape. I mean if we are going to be liberal, let's be truly liberal.

Well, lets just leave the rape off as I am more of a romantic at heart... but and give me 24hrs of amnesty on the murder thing. I can fix a lot of problems in 24hrs.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

carguy123 wrote: Make everything legal while we are at it. Including murder and rape. I mean if we are going to be liberal, let's be truly liberal.

Well, lets just leave the rape off as I am more of a romantic at heart... but and give me 24hrs of amnesty on the murder thing. I can fix a lot of problems in 24hrs.

OR BE A LONG WAYS OFF IN 24 HOURS!

A Romantic? Does that mean you brush the sheep before or after?

carguy123 wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

carguy123 wrote: Make everything legal while we are at it. Including murder and rape. I mean if we are going to be liberal, let's be truly liberal.

Well, lets just leave the rape off as I am more of a romantic at heart... but and give me 24hrs of amnesty on the murder thing. I can fix a lot of problems in 24hrs.

OR BE A LONG WAYS OFF IN 24 HOURS! A Romantic? Does that mean you brush the sheep before or after?

OH... you meant me doing the rapin'... ok. Gotcha. I just didn't want any of you folk sneakin' up behind me while I was on a killing spree.

These last posts made me go shoot some turtles. It's the only way I can keep the population low enough that I have fish.

But I left the cows in the pasture completely alone - this time.

Otto Maddox wrote: In reply to fast_eddie_72: I like it when you get fired up. You aren't mean about it and it is entertaining.

Eddie's really good identifying when he let's emotion get in the way of realities. Kudos to him!

oldsaw wrote:

Otto Maddox wrote: In reply to fast_eddie_72: I like it when you get fired up. You aren't mean about it and it is entertaining.

Eddie's really good identifying when he let's emotion get in the way of realities. Kudos to him!

A lot better at it than I used to be and I appreciate you guys putting up with me in a good natured way.

Datsun1500 wrote: You had proof you bought it from someone. You did not have proof that you bought it from someone that was legally allowed to sell it. That's the issue. You go out of town for a month. On Day 2, I sell your car to someone. They have everything you had, but no title. It's not reported stolen because you don't know it's gone. They get your car?

Well, look at how I laid it out, and let's go through your example.

Okay, so instead of me, its the guy who stole my car.

He goes into the DMV (that already seems kind of unlikely, really) and shows them a fake bill of sale. They type the VIN into a computer and say "uh, that name on your bill of sale isn't the legal owner".

Okay, maybe it's someone who knows me. They steel my car. They walk into the DMV with a fake bill of sale with my name and forged signature (again, not likely) and says he wants to register "his" car. He shows them his driver's license and writes them a check. They give him a title with his name and address on it and the VIN.

I get back from vacation and call the police. My car is gone. They run a check and find that some guy has registered my car. They go to the address on the title, and arrest the guy who's name is on it. We go to court. I show them the credit card recipt from Maui on the date that I allegedly sold the car, and I show them a sample of my signature that doesn't match the bill of sale. I get my car back and the guy goes to jail.

In my way, he's considered innocent until proven guilty. You are suggesting that my bill of sale be considered fraudulant until I prove it isn't. My way, we hassle people who break the law. Your way, we hassle everyone until they prove they haven't broken the law.

Besides, there are any number of ways the situation you're talking about could be accomodated. Maybe there's a waiting period. As I said in my original suggestion, they should call the seller. That would clear up a stolen car pretty quickly. I'm not saying they just print you out a title and send you on your way. They would have to do a little investigation. In my situation, the car had last been "owned" by a dealership. Could confirm that with a two minute phone call. Another two minute phone call (I made this one, so I know it works) to the California DMV would show who owned the car last. California DMV couldn't give me that person's name, which I totally understand. But they could give it to Colorado DMV. One more two minute phone call and we're done. And that's being pretty exhaustive.

How do we pay for that you ask? I can tell you this, I've been to the DMV several times in the last year or so. Almost every trip has been a complete waste of time. There's no way we can't have an on line system to register a vehicle. Fill out the info, mail in the materials and call it a day. Fire the useless people sitting at the desk with a bad attitude waiting to call your number. Hire half as many who take care of unusual issues- serving the public instead of standing in their way.

20 years ago I would be jumping ugly on the soap box against presenting an ID for any reason not specified. Today I sit more on the fence.

After listening to my city/ county PD scanner I finally understand the how, why and where vehicles get pulled over and people on the street get stopped, questioned and IDed. All day and night dispatch calls go out to PD for crime, suspicious vehicles and activity, complaints etc. Descriptions of actors and vehicles are often vague and indefinite so if you're in the area and fit a minimal description.. well berkeley yea, you're going to be of interest and likely to be stopped. EX.: Dispatch: a dark colored sedan firing shots in X neighborhood... you could be SOL if you're honest, law abiding and just driving a dark color sedan in the area, sorry but the PD is just doing their job.... your plate will be run, OLN and any passengers ID run through NCIC, wants and warrants and insurance checked while they're at it. I've heard three or four vehicle stops after such an incident. As much crime that happens in the E36 M3hole town anymore I must agree w/ the thoroughness of the PD here. Their radio transmissions are broadcast publicly and I've never heard them do or say anything hokey on air. Not to say they ever have or other PDs misuse the system. And btw as I'm typing, a vehicle just had it's plate run in a well known crime and drug activity area, no hits, no stop, no problem.

After all these years I see and hear how it all happens, I finally get it.

Good news for those who fear the police state. The Court of Appeals is blocking part of Alabama's immigrant law -

The other section that was blocked required people to carry proof they are in the U.S. legally. For "an alien unlawfully present:" failure to comply was a misdemeanor that carried a $100 fine and up to 30 days in jail.

So I guess I can go running again without fear of ending up in jail.

In reply to Otto Maddox:

Otto, your concerns about AL's law are duly noted and, yes, there is room for concern when states have to implement laws when the feds fail to uphold their own.

But, your responses can lead one to ask, "Just what is your status?"

But, your responses can lead one to ask, "Just what is your status?"

oldsaw wrote:

In reply to oldsaw:

My status is paranoid. I really am just afraid of the police having too much power.

I am pretty much the whitest white guy you can find.

Here is my facebook picture -

In reply to Otto Maddox:

An Alabama resident with "that" face? Keep carrying ID 'cause ya just never know..........