Alabama's immigration law

You look like a white Obama. Nice photoshop!

fast_eddie_72 wrote:

Salanis wrote: So, your tail light is busted or you're going 45 in a 35 zone. Cop pulls you over... You shouldn't have to produce your license? He should have to prove that you don't have one?

oldsaw wrote: You're driving a vehicle, doing something illegal and then get pulled over. Without a license, why would you expect anyone to believe you're the lawful owner/operator instead of a thief, drug runner, or maybe even an illegal alien?

You guys are assuming I did something illegal. People get pulled over every day witout having done anything wrong. It's only happend to me once, and before that I'd have probably said it doesn't really happen. But it does. And I would think especially so if you're a minority. To your point, I agree it isn't practical. But think about this- have you ever run out to the store and realized you forgot your wallet? I have. I've never been pulled over in that situation, but it certainly is possible I could be. Now, again, I understand we have to draw a line somewhere between ideal and practical. In a practical world, yes, we probably have to put up with the law that says you have to have your license with you. But we should put up with it, aware of the fact that it is an infringement on our liberty. It may be an infringement we're all willing to live with, but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that it is an infringement. Not to repeat a cliche, but it is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. Here's what I don't like. Government is supposed to govern because we have *given* them authority to govern in was we've agreed are best for all of us. Does anyone *feel* like that's how it's done? When a officer pulls you over, you should feel like everything is okay, not wonder what you're going to be hit with. So, back to our scenario above. I run to the store and realize I forgot my wallet. On the way home to get it, I get pulled over. The officer asks for my license, registration and insurance card. I give him the registration and insurance card and explain that I left my wallet at home. We're a half mile from the house. Wouldn't you *like* to live in a world where an officer looks at the insurnace card, the registration and the report he got back from the plate, sees that they're all in the same name and I live nearby and simply asks my name? I give the right answer and he says "don't forget your wallet next time". Isn't that how it *should* be? Or, back to reality - the incident that actually happened to me. I wasn't doing anything illegal. Got pulled over, produced my license, registration and a computer print out of my insurance confirmation. Shouldn't that be enough? Are we happy about our country being in a state where I have to take time from work and go to the courthouse to prove what the officer allready knew? When you buy a car and insure it, do you leave it parked until the card arrives in the mail? I'm pretty sure I didn't do anything that practically 100% of car owners have done at some point - something that officer himslef has almost certainly done. In my opinion, we're giving our government a lot of power to legally harrass us. I didn't go to jail or have to pay a fine. But I was still treated as if I had done something wrong when I hadn't. I just hit the wrong cop on the wrong day. He didn't like the look of the car, or something. Or the last guy he pulled over said something that ticked him off. Who knows? But I don't much like how it worked out. And - back to the subject at hand - I am not in favor of anything that gives them any more power to do so. And what really bothers me is it's not the people who have the power who are clammoring to do it, it's regular people saying "yes, I want to compromise more of my liberty". Now that's really a shame. At the very least, I would hope people would say "I'm not crazy about this, but I think it needs to be done". I could understand that opinion. I have a very hard time understanding people who think it's no big deal. The one that bothered me even more was when I got pulled over in the Celica because the damn dealer didn't send me a title. I had a bill of sale, insurance card, and my license and still had to put up with an officer telling me I was *lucky* he didn't take my car. Really? The car that I just showed you the bill of sale for? The property I own and paid for? I'm *LUCKY* that you allow me to keep it? Think about it. I went to the DMV and told them the situation. I couldn't register the car. I tried, but wasn't allowed to. Yes, it's my problem. But shoudn't my government be able to help me with that problem, rather than being the problem? Why do we pay them to do that? When I asked the woman at the DMV what she thought I shoud do, she looked at me like I had two heads. "I don't know. You have to have a title". Thanks a lot. How hard would it be to have someone who can look at my bill of sale, maybe make a call to the dealership in CA I bought it from, run a stolen vehicle report, conclude that I own the car and get me a CO title? Why is it unreasonable to expect my government that I give authority to and pay taxes to support to have some ability to help me with a simple problem? I bought a car. I paid for it. I had proof I paid for it. I tried to register it. And that's what I get? That's what we've built? This is the land of the free? I'm *lucky* they didn't take my car? Wow. You guys can be content with that America. I'm not. And there is ZERO chance I'm giving them any more means of harrassing people.

Your hypothetical scenario is silly (at least where I live) as every officer in the state has the ability to check whether or not you are a licensed driver using your name, address, birthday, etc. The article linked in the OP is pretty vague, but I'm guessing the premise is that if you get pulled over driving without a license you don't just get a ticket, you go to jail. I may be wrong.

Your actual scenario is disturbing but not surprising. Do you REALLY expect a government employee to use logic and common sense to resolve a problem? Especially a cop or a dmv paper-pusher? This is why we have "zero tolerance" policies - so Barney and Jacquetta aren't forced to rub two brain cells together.

The good news is, the law seems to be working in the form of self-deportation. Hopefully they're heading your way and not mine.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE79B7GO20111012?irpc=932

You can't write stuff this poetic. The fuzz arrested a German born Mercedes executive under our immigration law. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

link to Fox News so people won't claim liberal lies

Hilarity ensued with the governor getting involved. Or perhaps he gets involved every time a brown skinned person here legally gets arrested.

Otto Maddox wrote: You can't write stuff this poetic. The fuzz arrested a German born Mercedes executive under our immigration law. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. link to Fox News so people won't claim liberal lies Hilarity ensued with the governor getting involved. Or perhaps he gets involved every time a brown skinned person here legally gets arrested.

If the rental car had a tag, the driver wouldn't have been stopped.

If the driver had his license in possession, he wouldn't have been arrested.

Otto gets excited; I'm taking a nap at lunch..........

In reply to oldsaw:

Your lack of concern over an encroaching police state bewilders me.

In reply to Otto Maddox:

Your lack of concern that our federal government willfully fails in performing a Constitional requirement bewilders me.

In reply to oldsaw:

There inlies the issue. I've not explained myself well. I am in full agreement that the federal government is not handling their responsibilities. They absolutely should. I am merely displeased with a state law that I feel infringes upon the rights of law abiding citizens.

I just got legal use of my car back after a month of not being able to drive it due to registration shenanigans related to this bill.

Eons ago, in 2002, My bride-to-be and myself bought a new car, one that we still have. Being fresh college grads with brand new jobs and not much in the way of credit history, dad cosigned for the loan for us, and as a result has been on the title as a half owner ever since. Never really thought a thing of it, except to say stupid stuff like “hey dad, can you kick in halfsies on the tires/timing belt/what have you on your part of the Canyonero? Hyuck hyuck…” Never seemed to work...

Come to find out, since this bill has passed, that I couldn’t renew my registration without locating a BIRTH CERTIFICATE for my 64-year-old dad, who’s not even an Alabama resident. Took a month to iron that out. Good thing I have a different vehicle that I could drive in the meantime.

Otto Maddox wrote: In reply to oldsaw: There inlies the issue. I've not explained myself well. I am in full agreement that the federal government is not handling their responsibilities. They absolutely should. I am merely displeased with a state law that I feel infringes upon the rights of law abiding citizens.

Shut up and show your papers citizen. Also, if you ever even think about protesting we'll spray you with caustic substances whether you're being violent or not. Even sitting down in the street is a threat to Us, the police state. It will be downtown Egypt all over again with you in the starring role.

Datsun1500 wrote: I bet the guy needs to show ID if he gets pulled over in Germany, why not here? The MB spokesperson did not seem to think it was a big deal, why should we?

According to the article he had his German identification card.

93EXCivic wrote:

Datsun1500 wrote: I bet the guy needs to show ID if he gets pulled over in Germany, why not here? The MB spokesperson did not seem to think it was a big deal, why should we?

According to the article he had his German identification card.

ID, yes, but the article indicated he did not have a driver's license. If you're driving an un-tagged vehicle, get pulled over and can't provide a valid license, what would you (reasonably) expect?

I'm only taking the article at face value. The facts could well be wrong, always a problem when one passes judgement on an article published with current journalistic standards.

In reply to Datsun1500:

No, but they typically don't throw your ass in the pokey either.

I agree that immigration needs to be addressed but this may be a poor way to handle it.

I do not necessarily have a problem with having to prove citizenship via a driver's license. Especially if you are driving. Operating a motor vehicle on public roads is not a right its a privilege. Being an insurance adjuster I have seen lots of unlicensed uninsured motorist hit someone. They get issued some citation and are never heard from again. I have no problem with legal immigration and harbor no ill will toward illegals that work hard and pay taxes. I think they should do it the legit way but as long as someone is not a drain on society I do not have a big issue with them.

I have been pulled over more than once when I have forgotten my ID. First time it was easy enough for the officer to pull my ID. Run my social, DOB and address and let me go. I can't recall what I was pulled for but I don't think I got a ticket.

Second time I was out of state visiting home and driving my brothers car. I made an illegal U-Turn (missed the sign). I didn't have my ID and he could not find me in the system. He could see my past citations in the VA but could not find anything about a FL license. I told him my brothers name, address etc which was all on the registration. I gave him all my info but didn't have my phone so I couldn't call my brother for him to talk to. After a while he let me go with a warning since the story seemed legit. I fully expected him to make me park the car and get a ride home.

Most of my dealings with police have been positive and I have been given more breaks than I deserve but have also been nailed on stupid stuff because someone was having a bad day. People are people. Most are reasonable some are not.

Is driving without a license a jailable offense in Alabama?

I don't think it is in my neck of the woods, at least not the first time. Nope... Looks like a $360 fine. Presumably waived if you subsequently prove that you had a license, but failed to carry it (the former is a class B traffic violation, the latter a class C misdemeanor).

The notion of being hauled off to jail because you can't prove you're innocent of a crime which wouldn't itself be jailable seems out of whack to me.

Otto Maddox wrote: In reply to Datsun1500: No, but they typically don't throw your ass in the pokey either.

Yeah, they do. It's an arrestable offense to drive without a license. I've done ride-alongs with our local Sheriff's before (as part of Police Academy) and it was pretty standard to bring someone in if they couldn't produce a valid license. They did actually search the name/DOB in the database if the ID wasn't on the person, but if they weren't in there either they went for a ride.

Some of you are quick to criticize and complain when you see a few articles about bad policing, but what about all the ones you skim over and don't read, or the hundreds that don't make it to the media? When they do they job and people don't like it they are instantly criticized, but when they do their job and save lives/put away bad people to protect us they "are just doing what we pay them to do."

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/21341009/ns/today-today_people/t/hero-cop-saves-woman-oncoming-train/#.Tsr2QvJd6Hg

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/16072324/police-officer-uses-facebook-to-save-life

http://www.imperfectparent.com/topics/2011/09/29/florida-police-hailed-as-heroes-lift-car-to-save-child/

Many more can be found.

Just saying people, keep things in perspective, we could be living in much worse places with an actual corrupt police force...

Around here if you don't have a licensed driver you aren't driving away.

I have a serious question. When the migrant labor is too fearful to work, who is going to harvest our food? When a job at McDonald's is easier and pays the same or better and is available year round (compared to the short seasonality of farm work), is there any incentive to work in a field hunched over all day? Will wages have to go up to compensate for hiring Americans? Increases in wages bring increases in prices.

Yep. That is a correct (though incomplete) analysis.

First, let me start with a question... Is cheaper food (in the short term) a fair trade-off for higher taxes, higher societal costs like medical, housing, and education, for life? Will we always be able to enslave stupid immigrants to continue to want to do demeaning work for the rest of their lives, or is it possible they will also want to get better (and will take "more advanced" jobs from other sectors after they have benefited from the free education we offer them)?

As the desire to do the work goes down (for whatever reason- fear, safety, difficulty), the value of the work goes up. So, the people who do the "undesirable" work, get paid better to do it (which is only fair). Prices go up in the marketplace, and fewer consumers are able to buy the goods. But if demand justifies it, innovation will begin to address the problem.

When it is profitable enough, technology will be created to begin to replace the labor. Someone will invent an automated picker, or a method of growing in a controlled environment, or a treatment or technique to improve yields. This will bring prices back in line, enabling more people to buy. And the cycle repeats.

The system will continually be searching for an equilibrium.

Holding it down artificially by creating a false market for an illegal commodity (illegal labor) only serves to grossly benefit certain individuals who are adept at navigating the system and taking advantage of it's opportunities at the expense of the general populace. It's like prohibition, or pimping. A few get filthy rich, while the rest of us pay the related costs.

Yes, there is a big push in the agricultural industry for mechanical harvesting, but developing cultivars that are easily harvested mechanically is a slow and costly process.

Meanwhile, as the price of American food goes up, the demand for imported foods will only increase as their prices become more competitive. At the moment, most developing countries do not have the infrastructure to support exports of food, but a healthy dose of capital can change a lot, quickly.

Realistically, if given the option, American consumers will likely choose the more affordable alternative, regardless of where the product is grown. It's happened in every other industry; why not food? I guess we either pay for migrant labor in the States or we pay for migrant labor abroad.

SyntheticBlinkerFluid wrote: The illegals issue is touchy enough as it is, there is no good way of going about scoopIng them up.

Specially since they lower unemployment rates, boost or do not affect wages for natives, boost national income, usually don't have a legal path to entry (but can become legal once they enter illegally because our immigration laws are retarded top to bottom), are the the most upwardly mobile group in the country and are the most rational answer to our looming demographic problems.

I've studied this a lot, and aside from the "we don't like them because we don't like them" and "laws are perfect and sacred" arguments, there's really not much of a reason to go after illegals at all.

Just some thoughts on this debate. In reality if manufacturers and corporations stopped outsourcing jobs to other countries and more americans could be put back to work and unemployment would return to a more acceptable percentage then the noise we're all making over illegals would go away or at least quiet down. There's plenty of blame to go around.

1. I think it's perfectly reasonable for a state to require you to show your license if you're behind the wheel and you get pulled over. Driving is not a right given to you by the constitution.

2. Why should driving without a license only be a fine? How can that officer be sure who he is giving that fine to is going to pay it? If the person he pulls over has stolen that vehicle or has borrowed a neighbors car what is to stop that person from showing the officer the registration and insurance papers he found in the glovebox. Fortunately for him he didn't have to show a state issued document that also has his photo that can be matched up his address. He'll just pitch the ticket and go on his way with the actual owner getting stuck having to go thru the courts and having to pay hundreds or thousands having to right this and prove himself innocent because others feel it's their right to not have to follow the laws and prove who they are.

3. Are the people complaining in internet forums writing their state reps or governor about this? I doubt most are.

4. The governor is trying to drive illegals out of his state the easiest way he can. Although there might be better ways to do so I would suggest he is trying to help the common working person in his state.

5. The only other way to drive illegals out is to push mass fines on the corporations that hire illegals and carry out raids in order to prove they're hiring them. Sadly this will only drive those corporations to another state that is less likely to fine and carry out raids. So now you get to drive around your state without a license and feel good about it but now you have have have no where to drive to because your job went bye bye.

6. Write your elected officials and put pressure on them to pass laws that tax corporations less and make it more desirable to not move they're workforce out of the us. Notice I say less and not at all. I'm all for closing loop holes that make it possible for some corporations to pay zero taxes.

7. Stop buying goods made in other countries, stop buying from stores that only stock goods made in other countries. I realize those goods are more expensive but you're voting with your dollar and if we all did it we'd see us and our neighbors benefit.

That is all. Again just my thoughts.

DaewooOfDeath wrote: I've studied this a lot, and aside from the "we don't like them because we don't like them" and "laws are perfect and sacred" arguments, there's really not much of a reason to go after illegals at all.

Dey tuk er Jerrrrrrbs!

dankspeed wrote: 6. I'm all for closing loop holes that make it possible for some corporations to pay zero taxes.

only one disagreement with any of what you wrote....

regardless of loop holes or no loop holes corporations don't pay taxes.... whether those taxes are high or low... they just incorporate them into the final price of whatever product of service they're selling ... the consumer or the next level manufacturer has to absorb the tax ... if it's a next level manufacturer then it's a: taxed again and b: passed on again ....

corporations don't pay taxes