And you thought "stealerships" were bad

My son is living on his own, 1,500 miles from me. He has a car and has been maintaining it on his own. Not turning wrenches, but I mean he's paying for things that he can't do himself. I'm trying to help him be independent and not rely on mom and dad. He's doing a great job. 

He had a few concerns with his car, a 2005 Buick LaCrosse with about 70,000 miles, probably less. He chose a shop and took it there and woah boy was I blown away when I saw the estimate! Below are just some of the highlights:

They say the drive belt is cracked. Ok, I can see that. They also want to replace the tensioner, tensioner pulley, and idler pulley. Uh, ok but why? No noise at all when I drove it last month. Are they saying those items need to be replaced with each belt replacement? If so I disagree, strongly. But look at the parts and labor for this repair!!!

Holy padded priced and exaggerated labor Batman!! 

It gets better though. They claim there is excessive play on the inner tie rod. I just drove it three weeks ago. I didn't notice anything, but I'm not saying they are lying. But they want to replace both inners, and both outers for over $1,200!!! First off, only one inner is bad. You can say that the other isn't far behind, but maybe it will last another few years. My issue is the outer tie rid end has to come off already. No additional labor there. So almost $900 in labor to do two inner tie rid ends?!?! The alignment isn't included in this.

We're not done yet though. They are saying it needs plugs and wires. Not sure why. It runs like a top and has less than 70K on it. What do you think labor should run for 6 plugs and the wires??? How about $560?!?!?! Yes, they want almost $100 per cylinder for plugs and wires!!! How about $126 for 6 plugs?!?!  Yup, add it all up and they want $800 for plugs and wires on a 3.8L GM motor.  

There are other things, like $1,200 for cat-back exhaust, a VG flush of EVERYTHING despite the fact that the coolant is only 6 months old.  

He's already approved an oil change (fully-synthetic of course hahaha because, crooks) and the inspections. He's going to approve the 4-wheel alignment for $120, though I expect they will tell him they won't do it without the inner tie rod end. He can shop around for the exhaust and he'll take it to another shop for a second opinion on the tie rod end.

Shops like this piss me off. When I was in vocational school I had a great teacher that said something that always stuck with me: "sell the customer every single thing he needs, but not a damn thing he doesn't". 
When he's done with them I plan on calling them and asking how they heck they got to these crazy prices. My mind was blown. 

In reply to DrBoost :

Having been the one honest service writer at a PepBoys, you're gonna be wasting your breath and your sanity if you call them and ask for answers. 

A) they don't care, they honestly don't see anything wrong with it and they've already got theirs.

B) they are an idiot and just put in whatever the wrench monkey told them to without looking at the car.

C) they are idiots that can't get around the fact that their system won't let them put in anything but package deals that require the complete replacement of a system.

D) some combination of the above.

I'm so glad I got out of that hellhole.  It took a piece of my soul every time I clocked in 

I posted this a couple years back:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/off-topic-discussion/car-dealership-overcharging-on-repair/170132/page1/

The local Honda dealership quoted $1800 labor for what took me - in my home shop without the resources or training of a dealership tech - 2.5 hours to do, start to finish.

Repair shops in general are just bad, dealership and independents alike. The key is to find a good one, which can be very difficult. 

I lucked into my mechanic, met on a local off-road forum then he moved his shop local to me. Before that I ran the gambit from chains to Indies to dealerships. They've either been insanely priced, insanely incompetent, or both.

The handful of good Indy mechs I've known that were cheap rarely lasted long because they'd get bogged with so much work they couldn't get anything done, then couldn't find competent help and sunk. I'm afraid that's going to happen to Dave, but he's been an Indy for almost 20 years so the "help wanted" sign doesn't scare me as much. 

Many service writers are on commission and their stock in trade is using fear against a naive public.     

jharry3 said:

Many service writers are on commission and their stock in trade is using fear against a naive public.     

 

I agree. Well, that shock and awe approach just lost them a customer. Not only did they throw everything but the kitchen sink at it, the prices are insane. The $100 per cylinder plugs and wires is dang near criminal. 

New guy at work has a Ford Edge x 175,000 miles.  Mechanic told him he needed tie rods @ $900.   I mumbled and asked if that was right?  Maybe he didnt understand the entire quote or if an alignment was tossed in. 
 

$900?

I have personally done the plugs and wires on a 3800 in less than an hour. RUN don't walk from this place!!

In reply to DrBoost :

might not help you any, but i've got a guy i trust in Canton MI.

I have nothing good to add, a shop in Tampa charged my daughter $1900 for brakes, CV axle and upper engine cradle mount.  Less than a year later the axle they supposedly replaced broke in two.  A friend of my wife's called me asking if I could replace a rear axle in her 2007 Dodge Nitro, the local Pep Boys quoted her $3000.  I told her to have it towed somewhere else if it wasn't driveable, and if she could drive it, get it the hell away from Pep Boys.  Unfortunately I couldn't reccomend another place to take it to, but most independent shops these days practice a form of usury in repair costs.  They're the reason all these extended warranty scams are thriving IMHO..

I took my Tacoma in a few months ago to get for an alignment.  They called me back and said it needed every bushing known to man along with the tie rods.  Quoted me $2400 for repairs to get the alignment done.  I chuckled when I said look I only brought it in for an alignment.  Sad part was they wouldn't even do the alignment unless I got something repaired so needless to say I went and got my truck.  

DrBoost said:

jharry3 said:

Many service writers are on commission and their stock in trade is using fear against a naive public.     

 

I agree. Well, that shock and awe approach just lost them a customer. Not only did they throw everything but the kitchen sink at it, the prices are insane. The $100 per cylinder plugs and wires is dang near criminal. 

My brother has been a dealership mechanic for years. 

He is excellent, taught in schools for major manufacturers, multiple certifications, really good a diagnostics.   He should be the top paid person at his dealership.  But he is not.   He said that many mechanics add multiple "problems" to their findings to jack up their repair commissions  and that management is always pissed at him for not embellishing his estimates like the others.  Honest mechanics mean lower commissions for everyone.    

jharry3 said:

DrBoost said:

jharry3 said:

Many service writers are on commission and their stock in trade is using fear against a naive public.     

 

I agree. Well, that shock and awe approach just lost them a customer. Not only did they throw everything but the kitchen sink at it, the prices are insane. The $100 per cylinder plugs and wires is dang near criminal. 

My brother has been a dealership mechanic for years. 

He is excellent, taught in schools for major manufacturers, multiple certifications, really good a diagnostics.   He should be the top paid person at his dealership.  But he is not.   He said that many mechanics add multiple "problems" to their findings to jack up their repair commissions  and that management is always pissed at him for not embellishing his estimates like the others.  Honest mechanics mean lower commissions for everyone.    

This is unfortunately not uncommon. I've got the full spectrum of mechanics on our shop. Our best guy just quit because of it. Young, energetic, highest possible certs, fast, smart, got along with everyone. When he let the bosses know they tried to throw a bunch of money at him and that just made things worse. Meanwhile, the highest paid guy is a lazy sack of E36 M3 who causes headaches for everyone, but he makes the shop money. 

I've heard that part of the problem is the "everything costs something" situation. 

The moment a vehicle enters the property it is costing the shop something. Whether it's space on the lot, electricity to run the lights, wear and tear on the lift, labor of the mechanic, etc. 

I once heard that a diagnostic probably costs twice a mechanic's time, if not more. So if your mechanic is making $30/hr, costs the shop $45/hr (taxes/benefits), than the customer should be getting billed for $90/hr even if they don't have any work done. Of course the customer is going to scoff at that, so very rarely it's not worth the fight of the shop to bill for no work done. 

Thus, that gets unloaded on the paying customer. If for every paying customer there is someone who doesn't have any work done, you're paying $90/hr of markup. 

Of course, if you get greedy, then you actually generate less business because you end up with more customers who take their vehicle and leave, and your rates go up because you're paying customer aren't going to pay for all that lost business. As you turn more people away with overly high prices, your prices go up. 

I think the strategy should be: sell them something, or make them aware of a diagnostic charge. That's usually what the oil change serves as. But land prices are high, employing people is expensive, and parts shortages means vehicles sit on the lot a longer than they used to, so you gotta recoup those costs somehow. 

Just heard a friend's wife wanted to surprise him with a roof rack install on their minivan. She even called around to a few places. One quoted $1200 to install. She settled on the place that charged $400. For labor. Insane. 

clutchsmoke said:

Just heard a friend's wife wanted to surprise him with a roof rack install on their minivan. She even called around to a few places. One quoted $1200 to install. She settled on the place that charged $400. For labor. Insane. 

Really going to be the same for trade work overall.  Lots of people have no idea how to do basic things so will pay what it takes to get it done. 

The reality of it is that in these United States, labor is expensive and parts are cheap (relatively).  So its a lot easier to parts cannon something and replace an entire subsystem than disassembling, waiting on parts, rebuilding, testing the rebuild, and then testing the vehicle.  It used to really bother me that on some of these big jobs we would ship a lot of extra hardware and throw it away when we were done, in reality the time that can be saved by having a lot of extra hardware significantly outweighs the cost to us or a customer per hour, considering our service techs are around $300/hr plus Per Diem and Travel.  Half-Hour by 1 guy spent waiting on hardware buys a lot of extra bolts.  Same reason dealers just order and swap everything.  Cuts down on warranty significantly, gives a predictable service duration, and eliminates the unpaid and typically undervalued troubleshooting part of the service.  

I got out of the dealership because the warranty rates were just stupid. Then I left an indy shop because an honest mechanic has a hard time making a living. 
when I was doing side work I was really busy. I charged 1/2 the going shop labor rate and charged no markup on what I paid for the parts (retail).

I know what it takes to be a tech, and more or less what it takes to run a shop. Charging 3-10 times book time and Lamborghini prices for GM parts is not how you do that. 

Having been on every side of this conversation, proper techs that do their job get E36 M3 on, while the hacks that just right up everything all the time make the money. Proper customers and service writers will want to know why besides "just because" or "the service literature says so." I get that a new to the shop vehicle with more than 60k on it is going to get the full treatment. I started writing up shocks and struts on everything at 60k... what to know why? They have long given up the ghost before then...

EDIT: people are out of touch because of the $3k warranty will cover it all for $250.

In reply to DrBoost :

You gotta love matrix pricing.

Well, there is a consideration that a shop wants to make sure you're not coming back (that's really bad for the customer's image of the shop). 

Replace just the belt and then tensioner fails 3 months later? Bad. Replace one side tie rod end and the other side fails next week? Looks awful. Yeah, it means they replace a lot of stuff that isn't worn out yet, but downtime has a cost to the consumer too. Towing fees add up. etc. 

I'm not saying what that shop did is all correct, but DIY people often miss the fact that downtime and customer image are big priorities when it comes to any type of repair work. 

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

I did think of that if they are throwing the bucket of parts at it, it would have been good (for them) to let me him know why they want to replace everything except the lug nuts. 
That's a bad tech, a bad writer, a bad shop, or a combination of the three. 
there have been plenty of times I have recommended stuff that wasn't clearly bad, but I fully explain the reason. Usually a 'if we do it now, it saves you labor later' or 'shocks/springs are replaced in pairs' tyoe of thing. 

Ok, so... As I am the service writer of my own automotive repair shop in northern LA County, I went and put together some quick quotes based on the pictures you posted earlier. RUN! $442.59 for the belt and tensioner. By the way, the aftermarket tensioner comes with a pulley, and there isn't and idler in the system. $784.62 for the inner tie rods - if you have to pull the rack to do them, not all have to be removed. $285.79 for spark plugs/wires. All of these are quality NAPA parts. High quality tie rod ends, not the cheaper line. Double platinum plugs. Higher quality wires. This is standard markup... AND full labor at $115/hr. If you want, add in our standard $125 diag charge for the first line but it sounds more like these are all things they found without prompting.

Our labor rate is a touch low for our area. Some shops are closer to $140/hr. Even that would only raise the total by about $220 on all three jobs. What is their labor rate? And what labor guide are they using? The only quote that looks halfway right is the tie rod ends due to possibly needing to remove the rack.

Meanwhile, I have a shop that I asked to flush the brake fluid on my truck because I'm too lazy to do it myself, while it was in for state inspection.

Just paid the bill. State inspection, no brake flush.

This place seems like they don't want any work other than the simplest tasks. Had no interest in replacing an a/c compressor on the same truck. Which is right up top and takes maybe 45 min to change before refilling.

This is why I usually end up just doing stuff myself.

Ranger50 said:

Having been on every side of this conversation, proper techs that do their job get E36 M3 on, while the hacks that just right up everything all the time make the money.

Had one guy that worked his ASS off.  Never got promoted, never got more than scut work.  Had another guy that literally sent a brake job out with the pads on one side with metal backing plates against the rotors.
berkeleyer got it back in, didn't replace the rotors, just flipped the pads and drove around the block to "bed them in" and sent it out the door.

I reported that shiny happy person to corporate and I ended up in trouble.  He was the cousin of the service section's manager.