Another Stupid Drivers Thread

This morning as I was merging from the road our house is on to the main route, I got stuck in a "parade" of cars.  It was about 6AM, and the headlights went back for at least a half a mile.  Leading the parade, down this 2 lane road with no clear passing zones, was a minivan of indeterminate make.  I ended up merging in about 4 car behind said minivan, and we motored....s-l-o-w-l-y...down this 50 mph road at between 30 and 35 mph, the minivan's brake lights going off about every 5 to 10 seconds.  
After following said minivan for about 3 miles, we finally merged onto another road with multiple lanes, where there was a dash of cars to pass the minivan.  I admit, I blasted my horn pretty solidly while passing them.  

I just cannot fathom how the driver of that minivan could be so clueless, inept, selfish, and utterly stupid.  

Which reminds me...yesterday driving home, going the other way on a 4 lane road was a car stopped in the left of the 2 east-bound lanes, with its blinker on.  This isn't a left turn lane, and in fact there is a big sign on the traffic light clearly indicating NO LEFT TURN..and yet, here was this driver, attempting to turn left.  With a quarter-mile long row of cars behind them, many of them beeping (the volume of west-bound traffic at that time of day makes a left turn pretty much impossible).

It really ought to be legal to punt stupid drivers off the road.  

It's their road and they are nice enough to let you drive on it.

Pure selfishness.  No other way to explain it.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

And if they're not capable of mental and physical processing fast enough to handle driving around the speed limit, they should not be driving!

dculberson said:

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

And if they're not capable of mental and physical processing fast enough to handle driving around the speed limit, they should not be driving!

Yep.

I think timid drivers are more dangerous on the road than aggressive drivers.

In reply to NEALSMO :

Especially since timid drivers create aggressive drivers.  

been dealing with this here in Oregon.....   some drivers are just unaware 

solution: much more difficult driving tests!    Remember we have been told for DECADES..." driving is a privilege, not a right", so lets make it a privilege again.     As for other means of transport, there are many options...   bicycle, mass transport, uber/lyft, and others...

NEALSMO said:

dculberson said:

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

And if they're not capable of mental and physical processing fast enough to handle driving around the speed limit, they should not be driving!

Yep.

I think timid drivers are more dangerous on the road than aggressive drivers.

More annoying?  Absolutely. 

More dangerous?  Hell no. 

Just going on decades of experience....  People who drive 40mph in a 55 zone are very annoying, I've had that happen plenty and it frustrates me too.  But they aren't the ones getting into nasty accidents.

volvoclearinghouse said:

I just cannot fathom how the driver of that minivan could be so clueless, inept, selfish, and utterly stupid.   

It's easy.  DGAF about anyone else in the world.  Whether it was some 95-year-old pawpaw or some 25-year-old text addict is irrelevant.

In Maryland, state law requires that you move over and yield if you're holding up 5 or more vehicles.  Of course, the only people that this would apply to never actually notice that they're holding up 5 or more vehicles.

In reply to Klayfish :

maybe not getting into them, but definitely helping cause them by impeding the flow of traffic and causing people just trying to do the speed limit to get more aggressive and risky in their actions.

Just like one idiot can cause a traffic jam, one slow poke in the fast lane can cause accidents by forcing everyone to go around them. 

I'm a firm believer in minimum speed limits on highways and freeways, but I seem to be an abstract minority there. 

Duke said:

volvoclearinghouse said:

I just cannot fathom how the driver of that minivan could be so clueless, inept, selfish, and utterly stupid.   

It's easy.  DGAF about anyone else in the world.  Whether it was some 95-year-old pawpaw or some 25-year-old text addict is irrelevant.

In Maryland, state law requires that you move over and yield if you're holding up 5 or more vehicles.  Of course, the only people that this would apply to never actually notice that they're holding up 5 or more vehicles.

This was in Maryland, and I would estimate that there were easily over 50 cars behind this clueless bunghat.  

I have noticed more and more school buses pulling over when then get a parade following them.  I appreciate that.  

Klayfish said:Just going on decades of experience....  People who drive 40mph in a 55 zone are very annoying, I've had that happen plenty and it frustrates me too.  But they aren't the ones getting into nasty accidents.

Gonna disagree here. If it was true that all they did was drive below the speed limit that's one thing, but the vast majority of people I've seen driving that slow also make unsignaled turns, last-minute cross-lane dangerous maneuvers, stop in intersections for no reason, cut their turns off too sharp so they're into oncoming traffic or crossing into parallel travel lanes, etc. They're not driving safely and slowly, they're driving slowly and badly.

dculberson said:

Klayfish said:Just going on decades of experience....  People who drive 40mph in a 55 zone are very annoying, I've had that happen plenty and it frustrates me too.  But they aren't the ones getting into nasty accidents.

Gonna disagree here. If it was true that all they did was drive below the speed limit that's one thing, but the vast majority of people I've seen driving that slow also make unsignaled turns, last-minute cross-lane dangerous maneuvers, stop in intersections for no reason, cut their turns off too sharp so they're into oncoming traffic or crossing into parallel travel lanes, etc. They're not driving safely and slowly, they're driving slowly and badly.

+1

Add to that, even if _they_ don't get into wrecks, their erratic behavior often causes _others_ to get into wrecks...trying to avoid them. 

.Sometimes it is the second car, the one behind the slow driver, who just won't pass even given opportunities ,who causes the jam.

As a new parts delivery guy, I get to "share" the road with these people all day.

Couple that with the fact that all of the delivery vehicles have GPS units in them and the corporate office in another state watches EVERYTHING we do makes the job more stressful than I thought it would be.

An accident is grounds for immediate firing 

volvoclearinghouse said:

Duke said:

volvoclearinghouse said:

I just cannot fathom how the driver of that minivan could be so clueless, inept, selfish, and utterly stupid.   

It's easy.  DGAF about anyone else in the world.  Whether it was some 95-year-old pawpaw or some 25-year-old text addict is irrelevant.

In Maryland, state law requires that you move over and yield if you're holding up 5 or more vehicles.  Of course, the only people that this would apply to never actually notice that they're holding up 5 or more vehicles.

This was in Maryland, and I would estimate that there were easily over 50 cars behind this clueless bunghat.  

I have noticed more and more school buses pulling over when then get a parade following them.  I appreciate that.  

there was a schoolbus driver in PA when I lived there, Spring Township for those that cared. She would intentionally cause massive parades. If she saw you about to pull out before she got there, she would speed up to make sure she got there before you did, thus trapping you behind her ever growing parade. Complaints never did anything, not even filming it.

On another note, I once asked a police officer if there was ever a grounds for passing in a no-passing area. Sadly, there isn't. Even if you get stuck for 5 miles behind somebody doing 25 on a 50mph road, you are NOT allowed to pass them in NJ if the road you are on does not allow for it. (yes, it has happened)

Convince yourselves all you want.  There's no actual statistics to quantify if a driver in an accident was an "aggressive" one or a "slow" one, so I...nor anyone else...wouldn't really have hard numbers.  However, after tens of thousands of accidents, you get a very good feel for it.  There is zero doubt that aggressive driving causes far more accidents than slow driving.  It is very rare that an accident happens because someone was going 45 in a 50 zone.  And when they do, it's typically because the aggressive driver probably should be a conservative driver, as they don't have a damn clue how to drive fast safely.  I've sadly seen that scenario play out many times.  Each and every time, the cause of the accident is the person trying to pass being an uber aggressive dumb ass and causing a wicked wreck.

Far and away, the most common cause of accidents is rear ending.  That's aggressive driving. 

As I said, I'm not disagreeing that a slow clueless driver is annoying as crap.  They are.  I'm all in on that one.  But a bigger risk than an aggressive driver?  I'd expect readers here to argue slow drivers are bigger risks...I don't mean that as an insult, I'm here too...I like to drive and drive fast.  I agree with minimum speed limits.  But as much as we may not like them, the slow/clueless are far less of a risk than the fast/aggressive (sadly, outside of most here, many of them are also clueless).

In reply to Klayfish :

I believe we're arguing 2 sides of the same coin here. Do aggressive drivers get into wrecks? Of course they do- I see it every day. Are those wrecks sometimes caused by someone else driving overly-cautiously and thus creating the situation? Again, I think the answer to this is yes. 

If everyone drove the same speed for given conditions, there'd be markedly fewer accidents. There'd be even fewer still if everyone had the same level of familiarity with their automobile. 

An anecdote: yesterday I caught a ride with a co-worker to a meeting we had to get to uptown. He had a relatively new car he'd bought a few months ago. His progress through city traffic was...frustratingly slow. And then, when we got to parallel park- he spent a good minute jiggering the car into a plenty-large space.  Did we cause any accidents? Not that I noticed, but I'm sure he frustrated the heck out of anyone caught behind him. 

As someone said in a related topic, I don't assume all other drivers are out to get me. I assume they're all clueless and not paying attention. Which, in my mind, is worse. I can deal with someone who's driving aggressively and predictably. It's far harder to manage an unpredictable, poor driver. This is as true on the track as it is on the road. 

There are no accidents, only driver error.

At some point we are the other driver.

volvoclearinghouse said:

In reply to Klayfish :

I believe we're arguing 2 sides of the same coin here. Do aggressive drivers get into wrecks? Of course they do- I see it every day. Are those wrecks sometimes caused by someone else driving overly-cautiously and thus creating the situation? Again, I think the answer to this is yes. 

If everyone drove the same speed for given conditions, there'd be markedly fewer accidents. There'd be even fewer still if everyone had the same level of familiarity with their automobile. 

An anecdote: yesterday I caught a ride with a co-worker to a meeting we had to get to uptown. He had a relatively new car he'd bought a few months ago. His progress through city traffic was...frustratingly slow. And then, when we got to parallel park- he spent a good minute jiggering the car into a plenty-large space.  Did we cause any accidents? Not that I noticed, but I'm sure he frustrated the heck out of anyone caught behind him. 

 

But that's the point.  In the scenario you describe with your co-worker struggling to get the car into a parking space.  Unless he actually hit someone, any truly dangerous situation he caused (barring some bizarre circumstance like he was parking right at the end of a blind high speed turn) would be created by an aggressive and/or poor driver.  Frustrating as hell to be caught up by your co-worker?  Yes.   But actually being a danger?  Nope, not unless someone else makes it a danger. 

Are wrecks caused by someone else driving overly cautiously and "creating" a situation?  I know what you're trying to say, but from a legal standpoint the answer is typically no...not saying never, but the vast majority of the time.  The dangerous situation is created by the impatient driver not knowing how to properly handle it.

Same holds true on the race track.  When I come up on a very poorly and slowly driven car...and that happens plenty in LeMons, yes, I agree they're harder to manage.  However, it's my responsibility to be able to get around them safely.  I've never...knock on wood...had an incident with a poorly driven car.  I've seen many of them happen, and yeah someone gets frustrated with the rookie driver.  But if the veteran had been a bit more patient and waited until the next long straight, the accident wouldn't have happened.

I fully understand what you're saying.  Sure, if in my racetrack scenario above, some really dumb driver makes a sudden three lane change while I'm passing them on the front stretch, that's their fault.  But on the track, and in the real world, that scenario is far, far less common.  The more common scenario is faster race car driver gets impatient and tries to pass them going into turn 11 and dumb driver doesn't hold their line...when if impatient driver had just waited until after the corner, they would have had an entire straightaway to get safely around dumb driver.  Doing that is going to berkeley up your lap time...but it's also going to help ensure that you actually get to make another lap.

Let's look at it this way: how many aggressive drivers are created from a single clueless or intentionally slow driver?

In the situation with the s-l-o-w parallel parking, the longer one spends attempting to parallel park, the longer there's a non-moving vehicle in a lane of travel.  That creates a hazard.  

Yesterday, driving through the city, I saw a black sedan stopped in the middle of 3 lanes to allow a girl on the sidewalk to get in.  No flashers, no pulling off to the side of the road.  Just stopped, in the middle of moving traffic.  

I'm very familiar with LeMons racing.  I can't count how many races I've done, or how many dozens of hours of seat time I have.  I agree- on the race track, it is MY responsibility to manage whatever else is going on out there, wait for the good pass, and allow faster drivers to pass me cleanly.  There are no "accidents"- everyone is 100% at fault.  However, inexperience and cluelessness do cause wrecks.  As an example- I knew one driver who, whenever he braked, also depressed the clutch.  So, coming out of every turn the car would get unsettled, as he was releasing the clutch pedal and attempting to accelerate.  Eventually, and inevitably, he spun the car.  He wasn't driving aggressively, but he was doing something wrong.  After the spin he "fixed" his bad habit and never spun again.

On the road, I see, in the ~400 miles or so I drive every week, lots of bad habits, and not all of them are things that correlate to aggressiveness.  That slow minivan- by virtue of their actions, they created 50+ potentially pissed off, aggravated drivers.  Now, one can certainly say, well, too bad- those other drivers simply need to manage the bad/slow driver.  But which would be a more reliable, simpler way to make the road safer?  Get 50 people to deal with one bad driver, or "fix" the one bad driver?  

Appleseed said:

Let's look at it this way: how many aggressive drivers are created from a single clueless or intentionally slow driver?

What difference does that make?  If someone gets red misty because of a slow driver and does something dumb, that's not the slow drivers' "fault" 

volvoclearninghouse.

Wait, you mean you DON'T hit the clutch while braking for a turn?     Yes, in that scenario, I'd agree that's his "fault".   But if I'm an approaching car looking to pass him, unless he is weaving all over I wouldn't know about his bad habit of hitting the clutch, it's not something I can really see.  What I'm referencing is approaching a car that you see take the autox line each and every corner...or they SLAM on the brakes...or weave all over.  You have clear awareness of that driver being slow/erratic/unpredictable.  That's on you to find a safe way around.  The OP talked about coming up on a very slow moving vehicle.  In that scenario, it's clear that they're going slow.  If you're going to pass, no matter how mad they make you, it's your responsibility to do it safely.

A slower-than-reasonable driver is creating a new hazard that other drivers must now navigate.  They are literally a new chicane on the road.  While others (all the others) must react well and pass safely, the fault with causing the hazard lies with the slow driver. 

The result is the same as if road workers decided to create a new pothole.  Yes, we have to safely maneuver the pothole but we know to blame the road workers for the safety hazard. 

If you can't see the point I and others are trying to make, well then...

Roads are full of hazards, one more should not make you a pissed off, aggressive, shiny happy person that plows into a school bus and then tries to blame the slow moving vehicle for it. 

Kids these days, never taking responsibility for their own actions...