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Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
5/28/22 10:00 p.m.

berkeley man, I'm so saddened by this E36 M3. And the worst part of it is, I don't have an answer, and know that our government won't have one- not really their fault- we elected them, and this mess isn't an easy fix. 
 

I have enjoyed using firearms recreationally and during my time in the military, and don't know if I'm a hypocrite.... of course I am. I wish we could have rules that only sold them to good people. I wish people felt safe enough to not want them for self defense. I wish I logically felt like the answer was the same as the first amendment- more speech and not less.  
 

I reacted to these last ones with just... berkeleying sadness. I'm not even angry anymore and I'm not even surprised. And I desperately hope that my kids make it through school without a shooting at theirs. I'm just going to hug them as much as their teenaged selves will let me and hope. That's all I've got. More than passing thoughts of moving to New Zealand. This isn't the country I was born in, served for 24 years, and live in now. 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
5/28/22 10:01 p.m.

In reply to aircooled :

I'm actually opposed to increased restriction, but it is clear to me that people don't seem to be able to behave responsibly on this, so I may have to concede to some more (carefully considered) restriction. 
 

Unfortunately, I also don't trust my lawmakers to behave responsibily in crafting any such legislation.

Damned either way.

02Pilot
02Pilot UberDork
5/28/22 10:02 p.m.

Thought exercise: If you were to propose an amendment to the Constitution that modified or nullified the Second Amendment, how would you word it, keeping in mind both the changes you want to implement and the need to achieve broad-based support in order for it to have a chance of adoption?

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
5/28/22 10:05 p.m.

In reply to aircooled :

I agree- we talk a lot about 'assault weapons'. How about this- 3 round mag max. Felony with 2 years min if you get caught with one. You can have an M4 but 3 rounds. It will be as close as we can get to the US having a Port Arthur moment.

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
5/28/22 10:07 p.m.

In reply to 02Pilot :

Just remove the 'right' and craft amendable laws. The 'right' is really the crux of the problem. No one has the 'right' to drive a car. There are no carve outs as to who has the 'right' to keep and bear arms. 

02Pilot
02Pilot UberDork
5/28/22 10:08 p.m.

Since interpretation was brought up, here's the basics of DC vs. Heller, which is the currently relevant court finding. There are links to the majority and dissenting opinions there as well if you want to read the details.

02Pilot
02Pilot UberDork
5/28/22 10:15 p.m.

In reply to Teh E36 M3 :

While I'm sure many would agree with your position, it is a huge step away from the idea of an armed populace maintaining the ability to oppose state power that informed the original text. All of the rights in the Bill of Rights were intended as protection from government power; to remove such a protection would be a significant reduction in the power of the people and an increase in the coercive opportunities of the state. This may be a trade many are willing to accept, but it has ramifications far greater than it might seem at first glance.

Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos)
Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) MegaDork
5/28/22 10:21 p.m.

In reply to aircooled :

The Ruger 10/22, which is a very common rifle that I've not seen used in any mass shootings, is semi-automatic and holds more than 10 rounds. Many handguns in common use hold more than 5 rounds. Defining which firearms should be banned has resulted in pretty arbitrary restrictions whenever it's been proposed or implemented.  I believe the term "assault weapon" has become diluted in the media as well. It should refer to firearms which have the ability to fire in fully automatic mode. 

Likewise, you can limit an AR-15 to hold no more than 5 rounds, which is required to use it to hunt in many states.

The most effective method may be to limit the magazine capacity of weapons which have easily changed detachable magazines. 

New points: 

The vast majority of people who own firearms don't break laws with them. The fully automatic weapons legally in private ownership are almost never used in crimes. Heck, maybe it is never. Why? They're hard to get and - this is crucial- EXPENSIVE. They've become tools of corporations, police departments and the well off. 

Licensing, insurance requirements, repeated training and so on isn't something I'm completely opposed to. However, unless these things are made very low cost or free, firearms ownership becomes cost restrictive for lower income individuals. 

My personal viewpoint is that I should be allowed to own anything I want. Obviously, there are some practical considerations to this: Having a heap of enriched uranium in my backyard presents a clear danger to everybody around me. There is no legitimate reason for me to have it, either. The difference with firearms is that they present a danger to others when used improperly, but they also have tangible benefits as tools of self defense and sporting use (hunting, target shooting) as well as curio and relic collection in the case of antique firearms.

 

 

Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos)
Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) MegaDork
5/28/22 10:25 p.m.
Teh E36 M3 said:

In reply to 02Pilot :

Just remove the 'right' and craft amendable laws. The 'right' is really the crux of the problem. No one has the 'right' to drive a car. There are no carve outs as to who has the 'right' to keep and bear arms. 

Everybody has the right to drive a car- without a license, even, if they do it on private property. That's the entire point of the 9th Amendment, which deals with Unenumerated rights. 

barefootcyborg5000
barefootcyborg5000 PowerDork
5/28/22 10:27 p.m.

In reply to SV reX :

Gun deaths are not highest in the us. 

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/03/24/980838151/gun-violence-deaths-how-the-u-s-compares-to-the-rest-of-the-world

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Murders-with-firearms-per-million

Not to say we don't have a problem, but again, we need to be accurate in as many ways as possible. Language and numbers especially. 

 

We also need to consider the actual numbers in regards to crime, accidents, suicide. The vast majority of murders are with pistols, by felons, in areas where such are already illegal. The next highest number is suicide. 
On the other side, if everyone has a gun on their hip, what happens when folks get heated over mundane everyday issues. Imagine (or don't) what a 100% armed Black Friday crowd might turn into. 
I don't claim to have the answers, but folks on both sides need to be able to have these discussions dispassionately. There are valid concerns as well as complete ignorance on both sides of most issues. 

Javelin
Javelin MegaDork
5/28/22 10:29 p.m.
02Pilot said:

Speaking as a historian, the fundamental question to me lies in one's interpretation of the Constitution, not necessarily the precise language, but the circumstances behind it, and the intent and relevance of it 230+ years later, as well as the validity of the Anti-Federalist arguments against an organized militia. The Second Amendment, for those unfamiliar, reads:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Anti-Federalists argued that such a militia would be another tool of the state potentially available to impose tyranny on the populace.

It seems fairly clear that many people recognize guns as a tool for defense. While much time has passed since those arguments at the end of the 18th Century, the basic questions remain: where does the greatest need for defense lie, or put another way, what is the greatest potential threat to individual liberty and to the continuation of the social order? If one believes that the greater danger is individuals who may use guns against them criminally, then the potential solution lies in greater law enforcement presence and other state-sponsored programs to reduce the danger posed by these individuals. If, on the other hand, one believes the greater danger lies in the potential state use of organized violence (of which states possess a monopoly by definition), then the potential solution lies in greater individual ownership of guns capable of deterring state use of violence against the populace. In either case, there must realistically be an acceptance of a level of abuse, abuse that either takes the form of overzealous imposition of state power, or irresponsible use of violence by individuals. Which is the more tolerable?

As a historian you should point out that the second ammendment was written (1789) 58 years before the invention of the modern metallic-cased cartridge bullet (1847) and 154 years before the select-fire, semiautomatic assault rifle (1943).

Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos)
Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) MegaDork
5/28/22 10:31 p.m.

Given that the police have no duty to protect you, does that change anybody's position about keeping a gun for self-protection?

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim MegaDork
5/28/22 10:41 p.m.

I'm not sure if I can bring anything helpful to the discussion, but in a sense I may have a somewhat unique perspective on this amongst the people in this thread.

I've lived in places where legal gun ownership is possible but much more strictly regulated (Germany), others where it's more or less outlawed (UK), my mum lives in a place where every (male) citizen under a certain age has a full on military assault rifle in their wardrobe and knows how to use it (Switzerland). And now I obviously live in the US, and have mostly lived in places where hunting is part of the culture and where people in generally own guns. And yes, we own a couple of long guns, although we probably need to get them checked over as they haven't been used in a while. Plus, both my wife and I are pretty decent shots and I do have an interest in mostly older firearms.

Germany didn't really have that much in the way of strong gun regulation until the 70s, until the domestic terrorism decades (basically the 70s and 80s). Of course said terrorists mostly stole the guns or got them from "supporters". You know, like the Stasi. But anyway, these days you have to have a reason to own a gun (like for hunting or sport shooting), have to get a proper permit and have to have secure storage. Doesn't prevent you from owning, collecting and shooting guns, but like everything in Germany, you have to deal with the bureaucracy. Gun crime is relatively rare (and thus headline worthy) and usually involves guns that were either illegal and/or stolen in the first place, including stolen from the police. Then again, this is a country where you can get sued from calling someone an a*hole, so it's a slightly different vibe overall, and yes, it's mostly the outlaws and the cops that have guns. And the odd old guy who has a WWII tank in their basement although rumour has it that a fair number of families probably "forgot" to tell the cops about gramp's WWII souvenirs back in the 70s.

Switzerland is probably closest to the US when it comes to European gun laws. In some Kantons, you could (probably still can) walk into a gun store and walk out with an AK47 with very little in the way of background checks. Heck, a bunch of enterprising people had a pretty good pipeline going from Switzerland to ex-Yugoslavia back during that civil war. Then again, in a fair amount of places the attitude is "heck, everybody's already got at least one of these in the house anyway", although my mum did mention that not too long ago, regulations were changed and while you're military reservist, you keep the guns at your home, but you don't get any ammo anymore, mostly due to the number of suicides that occurred. Again, gun crime is fairly low but does happen.

The UK banned pretty much any kind of private gun ownership following the Dunblane school shooting and unless you're a farmer, it's pretty much impossible to legally own a functioning firearm. They also have very strict laws for when you get caught with either guns or ammo, mostly left over from the heady days of the IRA and loyalist paramilitaries (although those were mostly overlooked, it was really the IRA that was targeted by these laws). Yet, guns aren't exactly in short supply in criminal circles (because you pretty much have to be a well 'ard crim to risk owning one) and it's not that uncommon in proper gang infested areas to have shootings. But most of the impromptu disputes are settled either with fists or knives. Also, the coppers in general aren't armed, but the firearms officers can be a bit of a trigger happy bunch and have been known to blow people away for fare evasion or carrying a table leg.

Out of the three, I would argue that the UK has probably the most "low level" physical violence, and societal acceptance of it (at least in working class circles). This goes back quite a while, but they can't really ship the troublemakers off to the colonies anymore. Out of the three countries I mentioned, it's also the country with the worst mental health support out of the three and despite knowing a few people who have been saved by it, not necessarily a system you want to get caught up it. Oh, and it's also the country that's probably closest from a societal perspective when compared to the US (large and increasing wealth gap, a very depressed and shrinking manufacturing sector and a fairly limited social safety net).

What does any of this have to do with the US? Well, to me it shows that reasonable regulation can work, as long it strikes the right sort of balance. The UK IMHO went too far, and the main result seems to be that hospitals in certain areas like Glasgow now have world class experts in dealing with knife wounds, and that's despite strict knife laws that can even get you into trouble if you're a chef and walk home with your tools.

I personally don't think it's unreasonable to expect people to submit to a background check before buying a gun, and maybe even have to verify (to their insurance if not a regulation authority) that they have safe storage for a gun. I also think that with the number of guns floating around, it's probably unrealistic to expect a supply reduction, but some more sensible policies around transfers/personal sales (that protect both buyer and seller, especially if it turns out that you unintentionally ended up with a firearm you bought privately that, say, law enforcement may have an interest in) would probably help.

To a certain extent, I also find the invocation of "mental health" in this context problematic. Yes, I think it does play a role, as does having a closer look as a society into the, well, mental health reasons that are contributing factors here. But I see it being used in the context of Minority Report like "pre-crime" approaches way too often, and given that law enforcement these days seems to be at the front line of handling mental health issues because other institutions have been gutted/defunded, I think that's a very problematic approach.

It's become too easy to use it as the hammer on nails that stand out for being slightly different, and if anything might end up doing more harm to people who are not 100% conforming to an externally imposed idea of what normal is. If anything, stigmatizing not living up to other people's ideals isn't going to make this any better and very likely worse.

All that said, I also think that implicitly putting more firearms out in the wild by making it easier for people to open carry (and more importantly, concealed carry with fewer restrictions) might not quite be a step in the right direction here either. But without addressing the reasons why people feel a need to carry, I don't see that flying much either.

Anyway, mostly a perspective of someone who grew up in a different culture around firearms that might or might not be helpful to this discussion.

 

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones Dork
5/28/22 10:42 p.m.

I've always thought the "guns need to be insured like cars" was an odd argument. You can't insure against intentional acts (if you wreck your car on purpose, it's not covered) and someone pulling the trigger on a gun they own, is intentional. 
 

if someone steals your car, you're not responsible for the damage they do to others property, so stolen guns, not covered either. 
 

So what exactly is the insurance supposed to cover?

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim MegaDork
5/28/22 10:44 p.m.
Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) said:

Given that the police have no duty to protect you, does that change anybody's position about keeping a gun for self-protection?

That, plus living in a place were apparently police isn't always available 24/7 certainly does have an impact on my thinking around the self-protection angle.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
5/28/22 10:46 p.m.
aircooled said:
SV reX said:

Oh, and a "well armed militia" does not mean every adult should have a right to as many weapons they want.
 

 I understand we are not completely sure what "well armed militia" actually means, but define it!  

As noted, I don't think this is a productive line to go down.  My basic understanding of this situation (learned from a thread here actually, years ago!) is that the 2nd amendment has been heavily interpreted through various rulings etc, to end up with the current situation, so discussing that actual words in it are kind of pointless.

I agree with you. It's been well established. 
 

But apparently all things can be changed with the political will.  Up until a recent well-known leaked document, the Constitutional right to an abortion had also been firmly established for almost 50 years.  So I am not sure I can agree with you. 
 

The definition of "well armed militia" has failed to be defined for a long time because the political will didn't exist. Too many people didn't want to give up their guns. 
 

Until the time comes that we are willing to define it, we will not have any uniformity.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim MegaDork
5/28/22 10:49 p.m.

In reply to Steve_Jones :

I don't think it's so much what the insurance is supposed to cover, but putting restrictions on people's ability to own guns that should be dealt with by a legal framework rather than their willingness to pay. I think the thinking goes "well, if we make it more expensive to own a gun, people will buy fewer of them" and completely ignoring the fact that if you're looking at taking as many other people with you on the way out, you're probably not going to be bothered by or deterred by the insurance rates.

And if you feel the need to carry a gun in the pursuit of a criminal enterprise, I'm sure you're really worried about buying insurance that doesn't come in little boxes of ammo for the gun(s) you own.

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
5/28/22 10:56 p.m.

In reply to 02Pilot :

With respect- and I mean that sincerely to maintain the civil spirit- there is no world where an armed populace needs to repel the 'state power' in America today. We have (still) a very stable democracy that obviously preserves the rights of the political minority. An amendable set of firearms laws would be reactive to crises like we see today. If an armed militia were to need to repel the government, then we would need to see full auto M4's and javelin missiles available for purchase by the public. 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
5/28/22 11:03 p.m.
02Pilot said:

In reply to Teh E36 M3 :

While I'm sure many would agree with your position, it is a huge step away from the idea of an armed populace maintaining the ability to oppose state power that informed the original text. All of the rights in the Bill of Rights were intended as protection from government power; to remove such a protection would be a significant reduction in the power of the people and an increase in the coercive opportunities of the state. This may be a trade many are willing to accept, but it has ramifications far greater than it might seem at first glance.

That is correct. It was monumentally important to the founders for an armed populace to be able to protect themselves against state power.

That was long before weapons existed like we have now. Both the weapons available to the populace, and the weapons available to the state.

The image of a lone individual standing in his doorway fighting off the tyranny of an oppressive state while waving a AR at the coming onslaught of invisible Blank Knight tanks, MQ9 reaper drone, PHASR rifles, a Laser Avenger, or a MAARS robot is patently absurd.

I have too many friends with large assortments of weapons for "self protection" who don't seem to recognize that the state can limit availability of ammo whenever they want.

I cherish the value of the intent of the Constitution, but question the practical application of it.  It seems like a silly argument, despite the vast importance of the Constitutional theory.

Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos)
Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) MegaDork
5/28/22 11:17 p.m.

It's unlikely that any sort of militia could stand if the might of the armed forces where put against them.

It's unlikely that democracy will fail, though attempts have been made already (Jan. 6th).

As a counterpoint, armed resistance by determined factions have been shown to play havoc with standing militaries, including our own. In all probability, I think if a break in governmental power of that magnitude happened, the armed forces would *also* wind up split as commanders took sides and various National Guard units did so as well.

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
5/28/22 11:26 p.m.

The entire problem with this topic is there some base level assumption that guns are the problem.  No amount of gun legislation will stop evil people from doing evil things.  After the Waukesha parade massacre no one demanded automobile restrictions.  Heck, I don't even recall it being mentioned here.  The most efficient way to stop evil is the 2nd amendment.  Clearly, this very case in Uvalde  shows the police will always respond too slowly.  Are you willing to place your kids in that school given this irrefutable history?  
 

History also clearly shows what happens when only the government possesses firearms.  
 

None of you is actually willing to have an honest discussion (or most of you), because none of you will acknowledge those simple facts.  If you were honest about those facts, you'd arrive at very simple conclusions.

 

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones Dork
5/28/22 11:37 p.m.

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

I don't see people here saying guns are the problem, but the wrong people having easy access to them is. I also see 2 pages of honest discussion, and people trying to have a discussion without getting this locked. Your attitude above is what will get this locked, how about joining the discussion instead of telling us how dumb it is?

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
5/29/22 12:08 a.m.

Which history? Also, no one so far has said that only the government should posses firearms. 
 

'History also clearly shows what happens when only the government possesses firearms.'

 

I want to keep it straight and civil- but could you lay out the simple points that you say are irrefutable? They aren't obvious from your post. Guns are the only tool currently being used for mass homicides in our country. I'm obviously leaving opioids out of this discussion. 

Antihero
Antihero PowerDork
5/29/22 12:11 a.m.

This is probably not my best crafted response ever as I'm tired so read it with the best intent.

 

I live in what is arguably the most gun friendly state in the USA. There is incredibly low gun violence in my area, like basically none. Today my wife had a booth at a craft fair and I saw many many people carrying guns. It's a small town and a small area but much north of 100 people were carrying a gun. There was no violence. There was no posturing. Most important no one cared. The town annual gun show is literally in the Junior High, I almost bought a pretty sweet Colt revolver in front of my 8th grade locker. Various gun related things have been accidentally left in the school and students have just handed them off to a teacher, no one made a fuss and no one cared.

 

We don't have a gun problem, we have a people problem. Guns are a very basic way of having to take immense responsibility for your actions and there are a lot of people who are not up to taking responsibility for their actions. Society has very much turned into an endless loop of people not taking any responsibility at all for anything, because there is limited consequences for most things.

 

Here's how we change things IMHO:

 

First off, gun related violence should be ridiculously heavy handed punished. I'm talking taking a ridiculous step, and then taking 3 more. We absolutely, positively need to actually punish the people that actually do wrong rather than blame guns, blaming the tool is lazy and taking the easy way out.

 

I greatly believe that every adult should be able to do 3 things: Basic home/car repair, Drive a stick shift, and be able to shoot a gun. Whether you feel the need to own a gun is up to you, but I believe people should face the responsibility a gun entails and to stop making guns a "forbidden fruit" if you will. Guns are tools, nothing more, nothing less. 

 

Also I think it's important to mention that the primary reason I own guns is to defend myself from wildlife. For some reason no one seems to consider this and only assumes that guns are for people. There is no amount of gun control that is going to protect me from a mountain lion intent on making me it's meal. This happens much more than a lot consider. 

 

Does this make sense, or am I rambling because I'm tired?

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim MegaDork
5/29/22 12:21 a.m.

In reply to Antihero :

Makes sense to me, but then again I'm suffering from time zone confusion and it's well past my bedtime.

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