Autonomous cars

Curmudgeon rant on....

Anyone else not give a flying Berkely about them? I feel like the money being poured into this stuff would be much better spent making kids better drivers, with actual real world car control skills.

The insurance companies once they get the chance are going to "rate death" us out of driving our own cars.

Ugh feeling old this morning and grumpy about the state of the auto industry and the future of driving.

Curmudgeon rant off...

There's more money to be made in selling something new to the masses than educating them on how to better use what they already have. It's also easier to just let people stare at their phones while they're electro-chauffeured than it is to educate them of the dangers of distracted driving, and try to enforce un-enforceable rules put in place to save them from themselves.

I hate the idea for myself, but can understand the motivation behind it. I also don't think things would be all bad for those of us still interested in manually piloting antiques that run on exploding liquid dinosaurs if the majority of the uneducated driving public weren't in control of their vehicles.

I'm dreading the day that self driving cars hit the road. Them behaving like senior citizens, driving timidly and exactly at the speed limit will infuriate me to no end.

That's like saying people should just learn to read better instead of the entire TV and film industry spending all of that money making what they make.
While reading is a great skill, that thinking ignores the issue that people WANT to spend their money on watching moving pictures. While driving is a great skill, many people really don't care and would gladly trade money for the ability to be driven around by a computer. I'm all for taxing self driving cars a bit and using that money to further educate drivers.

The problem is that once autonomous cars are widely accepted, the insurance companies are going to make if financially impossible for the rest of us to manually drive our cars.

I think it's a good idea. Most people don't care about driving and never will, it's just a necessary evil to them. Trying to make them drive better would be nothing but a punishment and they'd go right back to texting-and-driving afterwards.

They also won't need to putter along like grandmas, but I think we will suffer some of that at first. Eventually as more and more self-driving (and electric) cars hit the roads, the speed limits will be raised until the self-driving cars are flying along, drafting each other at crazy speeds, and the human-driven cars will be holding things up. Further into the future I think human-driven cars will have to be driven the way horse-driven carts and tractors are now, on the shoulder with a "slow-moving vehicle" sign on the back.

I wouldn't mind a self-driving car as a dedicated DD but I'm not sure I'll ever be able to afford any kind of new car. The only inconveniences I'll suffer from self-driving cars are "grandma driving" at first and then a harder time getting cars to the track.

This reminds me a lot of threads I see on computer forums, basically saying that the average user should learn to be a l33t uber-geek. I think we've gone too far in the opposite direction there with curated computing, but that's another story.

Storz wrote: The problem is that once autonomous cars are widely accepted, the insurance companies are going to make if financially impossible for the rest of us to manually drive our cars.

They'll punish us a bit but not much, and not out of spite. Self-driving cars will probably just be vastly cheaper to insure while the cost of insuring human-driven cars stays about the same. The risk isn't increasing anywhere, it's just decreasing much less around human-driven cars. I think the real price increase will come as most insurance companies phase out policies for human-driven cars and insurance for them becomes a niche industry.

Storz wrote: The problem is that once autonomous cars are widely accepted, the insurance companies are going to make if financially impossible for the rest of us to manually drive our cars.

I think the most interesting part about them to me will be the way that insurance companies respond, and the way that taxes change when most of the US fleet of autos are electric instead of gasoline powered, and the government loses revenue because so few people are buying fuel.

Serious reform of road taxes will be needed. A quick fix would be a per-mile tax (ideally using a simple miles-driven reading and not a system that records where you've been!) but overhauling the system so that it doesn't amount to a giant subsidy for the trucking industry would be ideal. I'm not aware of any country that doesn't currently have this problem of the trucking industry paying well short of their fair share for the amount of road damage they cause.

And when people start getting mangled/dead when that no-responsibility technology fails occasionally? And it will...

WildScotsRacing wrote: And when people start getting mangled/dead when that no-responsibility technology fails occasionally? And it will...

Right now some people die because of technological failures in cars and we haven't shut down the automotive industry because of it. I expect this trend will continue even if people die because of a badly programmed driving AI rather than a badly programmed e-throttle/push-button starter.

I see a lucrative career in road pirating. Simply stop in front of an self driving car and get out your gums and take everything they have. They can't get away.

Storz wrote: I feel like the money being poured into this stuff would be much better spent making kids better drivers, with actual real world car control skills.

Yea... good luck with that.

Considering how many of us drive, especially slogging to work half-asleep in the morning, I'd rather lots of people be asleep with Google fully behind the wheel. As fun as my daily commute isn't, I think I'd rather like to be one of them myself.

foxtrapper wrote:

Storz wrote: I feel like the money being poured into this stuff would be much better spent making kids better drivers, with actual real world car control skills.

Yea... good luck with that. Considering how many of us drive, especially slogging to work half-asleep in the morning, I'd rather lots of people be asleep with Google fully behind the wheel. As fun as my daily commute isn't, I think I'd rather like to be one of them myself.

We're screwed then as driving enthusiasts. If people on a motor-sports board are willing to give the controls over then the remaining population surely will. I would rather drive myself even if its for just going back and forth to work, or loooooooooong highway stretches.

We're not screwed any more than equestrian sports types were by the first cars.

GameboyRMH wrote: We're not screwed any more than equestrian sports types were by the first cars.

Horses went from cheap and plentiful where you could just go ride in the country, to sort of an expensive niche that only a few can afford to enjoy in pretty specific areas. My sister works on a horse farm in KY and it's big money to get involved with most aspects of the sport.

Storz wrote: We're screwed then as driving enthusiasts. If people on a motor-sports board are willing to give the controls over then the remaining population surely will. I would rather drive myself even if its for just going back and forth to work, or loooooooooong highway stretches.

Every day on my commute to and from work I see the remains of approximately 3 fresh wrecks.

Every week I am delayed on my commute approximately 3-5 times from fresh wrecks still in the road.

Every month I watch at least one wreck happen right in front of me.

Every year or two someone manages to slam into me.

West side Baltimore beltway if you're curious about where the world is this dangerous.

There is nothing about this commute that is pleasant or safe. The best thing indeed, imo, would be to have the humans removed from the equation.

Do I enjoy driving and riding? Certainly! But not this commute, or most commutes in general. And not in all conditions.

I will further counter that I'd much rather ride my bike (pedal or motor) through a sea of Google autonomous cars that are fully aware of me than the normal oblivious self-centered humans. The humans who at best don't care about me and at worse are going to try to kill me (happens quite regularly).

Storz wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: We're not screwed any more than equestrian sports types were by the first cars.

Horses went from cheap and plentiful where you could just go ride in the country, to sort of an expensive niche that only a few can afford to enjoy in pretty specific areas. My sister works on a horse farm in KY and it's big money to get involved with most aspects of the sport.

I think most of that effect is because most people have replaced the horse with a car, so now the horse is seen as an expensive luxury when you already have a car, even if it doesn't really cost more. Back when you couldn't get a car, you already had the horse as something you used every day so it was seen as less expensive. I think the same will happen with cars, it will hurt us a bit but not much.

I am really shocked at the support for autonomous cars on a car enthusiast message board.

Storz wrote: I am really shocked at the support for autonomous cars on a car enthusiast message board.

Kettering got the same sort of grief over an electric starter. Real men and car enthusiasts knew how to crank an engine by hand.

Some of my comments may be a bit age related. When I was a kid I rejoiced in cars that barely ran and coming to work late greasy and stinking of sweat and gasoline. Today, not so much.

I'm not worried about the laws being changed and preventing me from riding my motorcycles or old British cars and such. In fact, like I said, I think having many of the people safely ensconced in their Google cars will make my riding and driving experience far better.

Storz wrote: I am really shocked at the support for autonomous cars on a car enthusiast message board.

Yeah me too.

I have about as much interest in getting a self-driving car as getting the clap. Actually getting the clap would be a lot more fun and probably easier to get rid of.

Storz wrote: to sort of an expensive niche that only a few can afford to enjoy in pretty specific areas.

You basically just described motorsports from LeMons to F1.

MCarp22 wrote:

Storz wrote: to sort of an expensive niche that only a few can afford to enjoy in pretty specific areas.

You basically just described motorsports from LeMons to F1.

I don't participate in LeMons, and obv not F1. But what I can do is take control of my car and go enjoy a twisty back road somewhere. That is what is at stake here, I have no doubts that motor sports will still be around (though with the EPA on a bender, who knows) for the few that can afford to participate, but what about just going for a spirited jaunt on your favorite road? Are we to just sit there like on a roller coaster, no thanks.

Storz wrote: I am really shocked at the support for autonomous cars on a car enthusiast message board.

Why? Did you not read any of Gameboy's posts? The benefits of autonomous cars FAR outweigh the negatives. The new technology being created will make traveling by car way more efficient and safer for all involved. I love older cars but I certainly don't lust for the days of non-abs, manual drums and no safety glass cars with dash pads made of metal ready to mangle my face in an accident.

All you're seeing is the one side of this issue, DEY TOOK MY DRIVIN'!! Yeah we get it.. we like driving too, we like cars. We like driving fast in our cars. What I don't like, is driving fast in those cars on public roads with the millions of unexpected distractions and dangers that go along with it. There wills till be track days, there will still be autocross, there will probably be a lot more automotive speed outlets pop up the more autonomous cars flood the market and roads.

But really it breaks down to this. We had 32,675 vehicular deaths in the US last year. Those are real people, that won't ever see their wife/husband/son/daughter/mom/dad ect. ever again. If we can cut that down to even half that number with autonomous cars then I say we go for it. We're not going to halve that number with better driver training, period. Humans are way to fallible, we make stupid decisions, we think we can drive after a few beers, we think that label on the side of the pill bottle saying "may" cause drowsiness don't operate machinery, doesn't apply to us.

Okay I'm gonna get off my rant here, but IMHO if you aren't welcoming to autonomous cars just because you "like to drive" that's a pretty selfish way to look at the situation.

Storz wrote: But what I can do is take control of my car and go enjoy a twisty back road somewhere.

Which you may be better able to do, with tourists and soccer moms being driven, instead of wandering into your lane as they text away and such.

That is what is at stake here...

No, you are assuming the instant there is one Google car anywhere that all other forms of transportation will be completely eliminated everywhere. There is no reason to believe that is or will be the case.