Bathrooms confuse me.

Please pardon my rant- keep it nice.

A little background... Some of you know I am a commercial construction contractor. I've been doing it a long time- nearly 40 years. Many of the things you encounter daily and take for granted have developed in my career. When I do my job well, you don't notice. You think it is normal (though it may not always have been the norm).

The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) is one of those things. It made basic accessibility for handicapped persons no longer up for debate. Accessibility is not a building code issue or a best practices issue, it is a fundamental Constitutionally protected right.

I remember when it became law. In the construction industry, we knew it was going to be a major change, and that it was going to impact everything we do. It has. Bathroom stalls, toilet seat heights, sink cabinets, grab bars, flush door thresholds, hallway widths, wheelchair ramps, handrails, scald protection, strobe lights, minimum resistance door closers, the list goes on and on. You touch these things every day, but they were not always there. It has changed the way we do things, and added millions and millions of dollars worth of cost to projects.

Much of it is basically a good idea. I see no reason why facilities should not be accessible. But sometimes, you just can't fix stupid.

For example... I just finished a 2 story car dealership. The upstairs is not a public space- admin staff only (3 people). But there is a bathroom, and it has to be accessible. Turning radius, wheelchair cabinet, grab bars, the works. BUT THERE IS NO ELEVATOR! There is no way for a wheelchair to get to the 2nd floor, but the bathrooms are still required to be accessible. I actually had to tear out a bathroom and rebuild it to meet the code. Even the building inspector agreed it was completely stupid, but he still had to hold me to the law.

Oh well..

There is another bathroom issue on the horizon that will make our current ones pale in comparison- transsexual bathrooms. It's not the law of the land yet, but it sure will be, and it will make a mess.

I have a friend whose daughter was in a prestigious liberal arts boarding school in MI for music- she is an incredibly talented harpist. 15 years old. She walked into a girls room bathroom recently and walked in on a transgender man exposing him(her)self. It frightened her so badly that she wet her pants. Turns out the school has several transgender only bathrooms, and transgender designated stalls in some ladies rooms. Who'da thunk? After a huge kerfluffle, the young lady ended up dropping out of the school because she was so ashamed of what had happened. Bam- there goes her music career. The school didn't really think a 15 year old girl should have an expectation of walking into a bathroom to relieve herself and not finding a naked man (at least anatomically male).

Got another friend who just lost his job because he refused to go to transgender bathroom training classes at a small Southern college.

I am not dissing transgender people- I have several friends in that situation. It's tough. But I am noticing that we are reacting instead of acting, and that we really are not sure how to handle the problem (or even recognize IF it is a problem).

The path we are headed down will soon include requiring transgender bathrooms, and it will be completely impractical in most situations. If ADA style rights are granted, we will be required to have a certain number. Then there will be discussions of which direction- boys becoming girls, or girls becoming boys? Pre-surgery or post-surgery? Hormone treatments? Will it only be with a doctor's note, or will an individual's perception of their gender be sufficient to decide? If a sexual offender identifies as female, can he use the Ladies room? Will the T bathrooms have to be ADA accessible? It is conceivable that when it is all over, we could be required to commit more than double the space we already do to bathrooms, in order to meet the variations.

It's all pretty confusing to those of us who build the spaces and environments that others live and work in. It is much more complex then a touchy-feely attitude.

So, discuss if you have some insight (but please keep away from the Trump-esque commentary).

Honestly, I dont think we will wind up with ADA type mandated transgendered bathrooms. I think commonsense laws regarding exposing oneself (even if within a bathroom) can squash most of what is pushing the arguments.

Honestly, the only case I can think of where its even somewhat reasonable that accidental exposure occurs is at a urinal in a mens room. All the rest, nethers out there activity, tends to be stalls in most cases (unless I am overlooking something?).

Put the changing table within the larger handicap stall and that vanishes.

Am I absurd in thinking this way? Noone should be shaking their nethers in your face, even if its in a public restroom. Make laws about that and stop worrying about what nethers appear in which room as much.

Individual unisex bathrooms for all.

Maybe we will see a big decline in sales of stall partitions since "one person, one bathroom" will replace the big communal "let's all E36 M3 in a line" as the standard of construction.

When is the last time you saw this in modern construction?

Hell, build better partitions and make one bathroom with more private stalls. No more gender specifics!

honestly. one big bathroom with locking stalls would solve a lot of issues.. how many times have been at a game and seen one man in the men's room and a line of ladies trying to get into theirs?

I don't see what the big deal is, use whichever one you'll blend in the best in. What happened to your friend's daughter seems like a separate issue, last I checked exposing yourself in a multi person bathroom isn't ok. The whole thing feels like a distraction from the bigger problems.

I'm with Apex. Meat swinging isn't allowed in either bathroom (at least in Florida). Sounds like that issue is a child predator/ indecent exposure issue and not a trans issue.

All this arguing about target's bathroom policy is just useless and distracting from real issues. There won't be bouncers at the door checking ID of public restrooms. 99.9999999999% of the time a trans person will use whatever bathroom they want and walk out and no one will even know.. It would be more distracting and of an issue to NOT let them do that. Think of someone dressed as a female in the mens room or someone dressed like a man in the womens room.

People should just stop looking at other people's junk.

mad_machine wrote: honestly. one big bathroom with locking stalls would solve a lot of issues.. how many times have been at a game and seen one man in the men's room and a line of ladies trying to get into theirs?

This is not a problem I want solved for ladies. I like not having to stand in line with a bursting bladder to piss. There are enough women jumping ship at concerts and ballgames as it is.

Speaking of bathrooms, and this must be a grandfathered thing, but I have been to several New York eateries that have the bathroom down one level--and no elevator. So if you're in a wheelchair or don't do stairs for whatever reason, no bathroom for you.

Side story, I was in line for customs in PR on the way down to the USVI to deliver a boat back to the US. While I was waiting I struck up a conversation with this young woman in front of me. Pretty cute, probably in her mid 20s but that's beside the point. Later, once I actually get to customs the immigration officer was like "hey man, that girl in front of you was pretty cute, did you get her number?". I responded no we were just talking. He leans in and goes "yo, that was a dude". I said something along the lines of we must not be talking about the same person but sure enough.....we were .

The point is....I'm not really sure what the point is. I just thought I would tell you guys this story. Maybe the point is these are friendly people just trying to live their life and not make a scene. People with an agenda are the ones making the scene.

I'm more surprised that the dealership is allowed to have second story work space without elevator or lift access.

You say only 3 clerical workers are up there but if a qualified but wheelchair bound person ever applies to work there as clerical they will surely be discriminated.

Law already requires a "family" bathroom in most places. Just change that to "gender neutral" bathroom and call it a day.

I have to say I am impressed.. if only the rest of the internet was approaching this "issue" as adult like as everyone here has so far.

Like it has been said before in many places.. you have probably already shared a bathroom with a trans person.. and nobody got assaulted, raped, or forced to see their genitalia. In fact you probably never even knew

Enyar wrote: The point is....I'm not really sure what the point is. I just thought I would tell you guys this story. Maybe the point is these are friendly people just trying to live their life and not make a scene. People with an agenda are the ones making the scene.

Yup. In the end, we all just want to pee (and poop) in peace.

mad_machine wrote: honestly. one big bathroom with locking stalls would solve a lot of issues.. how many times have been at a game and seen one man in the men's room and a line of ladies trying to get into theirs?

Other parts of the world are like that.

Exposing yourself in the bathroom is not right in any bathroom for any gender.

Anyway, at the hockey stadium in Tampa, all of the bathrooms are stalls only- no urinals anywhere. First step to gender neutral bathrooms. Just make the walls higher and lower.

Little girls already go into the mens bathroom (with their dad), just like little boys go into the womens (with mom). This whole thing about newly exposing people to predators is nonsense- they are already there, if it's a risk.

BTW, Paul- not all people with handicaps use wheelchairs. Some can use the stairs. Not sure why you think that the only handicap that requires the big stall are wheelchairs.

I'm in the "keep it in your pants in public" camp. I don't care how complex your gender identity is, you just need to behave like a member of polite society and don't be standing in the ladies' room waving private parts around. I'm not going to catch trans cooties from you using the same bathroom as me, but I'm not going to appreciate you getting your junk out in public regardless of how you feel about it personally.

Now I'm curious - what sort of handicap lets you navigate stairs but requires a big stall for the bathroom? Or is it the handrails that you might need? I guess that would make sense...

It's only a big deal if it's made into a big deal. Plenty of places even around here simply have a restroom.

Been in plant maintenance for over 35 years as pipe fitter/ plumber, maintenance tech etc. w/ rest room maintenance part of the job at times. Stories I could tell would shock the E36 M3 outta y'all, who the berkeley does that kinda juvenile E36 M3... M and F.

Only thing to add here is if there is a third, fourth or more designation to restroom statuses that they are at least somewhat more considerate in their business and sanitation.

Let the authorities that be designate who is who in the zoo but pahleez be sanitary about it... says the guy that had to fix all their berkeleyups.

BTW, Ain't doin' that routine no berkeleying more.

Sorta related story to Alfadriver's.

We saw Rush at the Amalie Arena, Tampa's hockey arena. I had to go do my businesses, so I went to bathroom. No urinals, just stalls. Am I in the right place? I was pretty sure.

Then two dudes walked in: "Dude, no urinals, are we in the right place?"

So it wasn't just me.

Nice bathroom, btw.

David S. Wallens wrote: Sorta related story to Alfadriver's. We saw Rush at the Amalie Arena, Tampa's hockey arena. I had to go do my businesses, so I went to bathroom. No urinals, just stalls. Am I in the right place? I was pretty sure. Then two dudes walked in: "Dude, no urinals, are we in the right place?" So it wasn't just me. Nice bathroom, btw.

Technically, it was the same place.

The frozen four was held at Amalie a month ago. And it is changed from when we where there in 2011.

See, same place.

Nice bathrooms, huh?

Bringing up these laws is giving more spotlight on someone looking to expose themselves. That's apparently what they get off on so it's only giving folks like that a bigger stage and bigger thrill. Don't see how the transgender part has anything to do w/ it. It'd be wrong between two guys, two girls, two anyone regardless.

I'll be irate if urinals disappear. First of all they're time efficient for users. Secondly they're lower maintenance and require less involved cleaning then toilets which saves businesses money. 3rd they preserve the cleanliness of the toilets for when a bowel movement in a public restroom is a requirement. If they're a casualty of this war I'll be heartbroken for the loss of the most efficient piece of equipment regarding the disposal of human waste in the modern world.

Why are you so sure trans bathrooms are going to be a thing? I think, construction-wise, the status quo or gender-neutral bathrooms are far more likely.

SVreX wrote: I have a friend whose daughter was in a prestigious liberal arts boarding school in MI for music- she is an incredibly talented harpist. 15 years old. She walked into a girls room bathroom recently and walked in on a transgender man exposing him(her)self. It frightened her so badly that she wet her pants. Turns out the school has several transgender only bathrooms, and transgender designated stalls in some ladies rooms. Who'da thunk? After a huge kerfluffle, the young lady ended up dropping out of the school because she was so ashamed of what had happened. Bam- there goes her music career. The school didn't really think a 15 year old girl should have an expectation of walking into a bathroom to relieve herself and not finding a naked man (at least anatomically male).

That sucks, but it sounds to me (assuming this was actually "walked into a bathroom and saw exposed male genitalia" and not "was accosted by a sexual predator with a cutting-edge excuse") like she was a delicate china doll in the mosh pit of life, just waiting to be shattered by the first bump. She was lucky to have made it that far without having her life derailed by some moderately awkward experience. Again, assuming this was a genuine accident, she could've just as easily ran into a male friend taking a leak near a campsite while looking for a place to do the same.

SVreX wrote: Got another friend who just lost his job because he refused to go to transgender bathroom training classes at a small Southern college.

Zero sympathy here, that's his choice. I would sit through a training class of reasonable length on just about any thing I consider stupid or offensive rather than get fired. Heck, I find some of the marketing material I help to produce and/or distribute offensive.

David S. Wallens wrote: See, same place. Nice bathrooms, huh?

Hard to tell- there was a line each time I wanted to use it, and by then, it was kind of a mess. But it probably was nice. Hockey games limit when you can go- as few leave in the middle of a play.