Beer Hall Putsch

Today is the 100th anniversary of Hitler's failed putsch. Too bad the police weren't better shots.

At least the human race has become more tolerant since then...

/sorrynotsorry for the sarcasm.

remeber hitler was elected democratically in time when germany was very polarized politically.  far leftists who were electing communists vs. far right militia's..

hmm..............

I thought you were talking about the 2013 Doug Stanhope special at first. 

It's great if you like his acerbic-style of comedy.

Fueled by Caffeine said:

remeber hitler was elected democratically in time when germany was very polarized politically.  far leftists who were electing communists vs. far right militia's..

hmm..............

It's worth considering the finer detail that Hitler himself wasn't elected. Nazis were elected and Hitler was appointed from within the party. The Nazis then dismantled democratic constraints and made Hitler a dictator:

https://www.dw.com/en/fact-or-fiction-adolf-hitler-won-an-election-in-1932/a-18680673

Appleseed said:

Today is the 100th anniversary of Hitler's failed putsch. Too bad the police weren't better shots.

You do have to be careful with these sort of what if's because you don't know what you don't know. 

While you might assume the killing of Hitler would put a stop to his future action, which is certainly true, what you do not know is what that action will also result in.  E.g. killing Hitler certainly does not kill the sentiment in Germany at that time (which allowed Hitlers rise to power) and there is certainly potential for a similar character to rise up. Whomever did rise up might also be more vengeful (again, maybe that measure is pretty pegged) because of the violence of that killing, and that person could simply end up doing almost exactly the same things (sort of a fatalistic view to history).

Kind of hard to believe that would be a worse person(!) but you never know.  It would be very difficult to replace his personality / charisma though, since he seemed to be a bit a rarity in that aspect, but again, predicting the result of that would be difficult also.  You also have to consider a very similar strong personality was sitting just to the East, Stalin. German and Russia could be said to be on an eventual path to war at that point.  So, even if killing Hitler effectively neutered their world conquering adventures, it potentially could result in Russia running them over, and a Communist Russia controlled Europe!

A similar discussion has been had with removal / elimination of Putin.  While he is certainly the initiator of much of the current situation in Russia, there is also potential for replacements that are at least as "bad".

E.G. - careful what you with for.

Well, if anyone's keeping track of history, today is also the 85th anniversary of the infamous trumped-up (lower case) Kristallnacht in 1938.

Gary said:

Well, if anyone's keeping track of history, today is also the 85th anniversary of the infamous trumped-up (lower case) Kristallnacht in 1938.

OK, so how exactly is Kristallnacht fake!?   

And why the heck would anyone upvote that thought!!!!

WHAT am I missing here?  This seems WILDLY inappropriate!

Kristallnacht:  was a pogrom against Jews carried out by the Nazi Party's Sturmabteilung (SA) paramilitary and Schutzstaffel (SS) paramilitary forces along with some participation from the Hitler Youth and German civilians throughout Nazi Germany on 9–10 November 1938. The German authorities looked on without intervening.[3] The name Kristallnacht (literally 'Crystal Night') comes from the shards of broken glass that littered the streets after the windows of Jewish-owned stores, buildings, and synagogues were smashed.....

......Estimates of fatalities caused by the attacks have varied. Early reports estimated that 91 Jews had been murdered.[a] Modern analysis of German scholarly sources puts the figure much higher; when deaths from post-arrest maltreatment and subsequent suicides are included, the death toll reaches the hundreds, with Richard J. Evans estimating 638 deaths by suicide.[11] Historians view Kristallnacht as a prelude to the Final Solution and the murder of six million Jews during the Holocaust.[12].....

trumped-up   adjective
        : fraudulently concocted : SPURIOUS : concocted with intent to deceive
    synonyms:  false,  not in accordance with the fact or reality or actuality

In reply to aircooled :

because sandy hook was a false flag?  

/s

Appleseed said:

Today is the 100th anniversary of Hitler's failed putsch. Too bad the police weren't better shots.

Probably because a lot of the police were sympathizers (to put it mildly).

You have to consider that Bavaria is/was generally a pretty conservative place, and the whole country having become a republic in a pretty chaotic way and only about five years before all that happened. So a lot of the organs of the state were carryovers from they Kaiser's administration, and their sympathies weren't exactly on the side of the fledgling German republic.

Add to that the fact that Germany pretty much was in a state of low-level civil war for most of the twenties with political violence, assassinations of political opponents - mostly on the left side of the spectrum - being a fairly regular occurrence. Probably didn't help that a lot of soldiers walked home from the front after the armistice in '18 and kinda sorta forgot to hand back their guns first.

None of this excuses the evil that transpired, but what I'm trying to express is that Adolf and his band of unpleasant shiny happy people couldn't have picked a potentially more sympathetic place in Germany to stage their failed coup.

Don't forget the state of the economy in all of this. Germany in the early 1920s was experiencing catastrophic hyperinflation:

This led to such improbable scenes as these:

In those circumstances, it's hardly surprising that there was widespread dissatisfaction with the Republic and the Treaty of Versailles that created it.

aircooled said:

Gary said:

Well, if anyone's keeping track of history, today is also the 85th anniversary of the infamous trumped-up (lower case) Kristallnacht in 1938.

OK, so how exactly is Kristallnacht fake!?   

And why the heck would anyone upvote that thought!!!!

WHAT am I missing here?  This seems WILDLY inappropriate!

I wonder if he's thinking of the "Night of the Long Knives", where the Nazis used the excuse of getting rid of the SA to kill a bunch of their other enemies and consolidate power.

Gentlemen, I was not suggesting that Kristallnacht was fake. It most certainly did happen.  I said "trumped-up" because the alleged prior triggering event that caused the activity was something that happened in Paris.

From Wiki:

"The pretext for the attacks (kristallnacht) was the assassination of the German diplomat Ernst vom Rath[4] by Herschel Grynszpan, a 17-year-old German-born Polish Jewliving in Paris."

Maybe the pretext was justification in the minds of the nazis, but it was nothing more than a trumped-up excuse for mayhem and murder.

My post, which received so many down votes that it had to be hidden, was only to remind people here that November 9 is also the anniversary of Kristallnacht. I assumed (wrongly apparently) that people knew the reason it occurred. That's why I said "trumped-up."

(And thanks aircooled for supplying the definition of trumped-up for those who didn't know the meaning). / s

I'm currently slogging through The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich which is now available free on Amazon Kindle. The one take-away so far (I'm only about a third in) is that there were numerous times where Hitler would have just faded into obscurity before he rose to power. He was, frankly, a complete idiot. He got very lucky before he became politically savvy. If only things had taken an ever-so-slight different turn, we would not ever have known his name. 

In reply to ddavidv :

I read "Rise and Fall" 25 years ago. William Shirer, the author and journalist, lived in Berlin in the thirties. As an outsider, he had arguably the best insight as to what was going on at the time. I liked his other book "Berlin Diary," which was a running commentary of what was happening during that time. Both books are highly recommended.

Gary said:

In reply to ddavidv :

I read "Rise and Fall" 25 years ago. William Shirer, the author and journalist, lived in Berlin in the thirties. As an outsider, he had arguably the best insight as to what was going on at the time. I liked his other book "Berlin Diary," which was a running commentary of what was happening during that time. Both books are highly recommended.

The good thing about "Rise and Fall" is that Shirer was there and saw it all first hand. The bad thing is that he was there and felt the emotions of it, and that comes through in his writing. It's an invaluable piece of history, but it's far from a dispassionate academic analysis. That's OK, not everything has to be, but it can be jarring to read, especially if you are used to traditional historical books.

In reply to ddavidv :

He was a pretty decent artist. In a better universe, to have a genuine  (not a reproduction) Hitler hanging in your home is a status symbol.

In reply to Gary :

I am glad to hear that.  You have to admit though, that was very poorly phrased.  Saying, effectively, "the fake kristallnacht" is certainly different than "the fake justification for kristallnacht".  (I do understand how that could be interpreted as you say though).  I supplied the definition because I found it hard to believe you understood what it was, and wanted to make sure I and others did. (not s)

I apologize for being a bit overly reactive. Perhaps I am being especially defensive because of current situations.  There was just a person killed very near me for what may have been similar reasonings as kristallnacht, though I certainly don't fear a repeat. 

I do not however apologize for putting effort into making sure that was cleared up, there are certainly those in this world who very much do think Kristallnacht was fake.  Sadly, a LOT of them.

In reply to aircooled :

Thanks. I now understand how it could be interpreted differently. Not a problem on my end.

(I only wish that I didn't have that hidden post because of so many down votes. Seems like a demerit. )

It's unhidden now

In reply to Gary :

I was confused on your post, because what I interpreted was clearly not what you intended. 

To make sure I'm understanding, you're saying that the triggering event was trumped-up and used as justification for the massacre. Is that correct? 

I have to admit, while at one point I did know the supposed cause, or triggering event to be more accurate, of Kristallnacht, it had been lost in my memory. This just unlocked my 8th grade history teacher's lecture on it. 

Correct. The assassination in Paris should not have caused the nazis to go on their rampage of Nov. 9-10. It was inflated in importance (to them) in order to justify an intended outcome. That was a tactic they used other times in order to achieve an intended outcome (e.g. Reichstag fire in the early thirties to suppress dissent against Hitler, and the "Polish soldiers" that supposedly attacked a radio station near the border, a false flag event, that triggered the invasion of Poland in September 1939 to name a couple). 

GameboyRMH said:

It's worth considering the finer detail that Hitler himself wasn't elected. Nazis were elected and Hitler was appointed from within the party. The Nazis then dismantled democratic constraints and made Hitler a dictator:

https://www.dw.com/en/fact-or-fiction-adolf-hitler-won-an-election-in-1932/a-18680673

This is maybe my least-favorite historical fact.