Big Wigs and Getting Icarused.

What, in your experiences, are irritating qualities of social climbers or upwardly mobile people? What kinds of things do they berkeley up?

I ask because, by background, I'm white trash who lucked into a really good education. I am practiced in the art of convincing gangsters to not shoot, I know three separate people who would eventually commit multiple murders, I'm still terrified of cops and I spent the majority of my life thinking that it was classy to buy clothes at Wal-Mart. That was normal for me.

I took some pretty major career and educational risks and a lot of them paid off. I'm starting to have social contacts with some seriously heavy hitters - a member of former President Roh Mu-hyeon's cabinet, a guy who directs major films, the lady who runs the public school system in a major city, etc. This is about as far from my old normal as it's possible to get.

I very much want to remain in these circles but I'm scared I'm gonna Icarus myself. Any advice is appreciated.
 

This is the USA. Anybody can can be anything they want to be within the limits of their abilities, determination, and self discipline. You have transcended. Be who you are, an educated and successful adult with a unique background. 
 

I've moved a lot higher than where I started too, but maybe not like you have.  Remember, a lot of the people you're around now probably did too. They're just people, don't be intimidated and don't treat them as better than you are. Relate to them as if they are just another person (because that's what they are). Listen more than you speak and learn what you can, but don't be afraid to be part of the conversation when you have something to contribute. Remember that people tend to assume everyone has the same experience and background that they do - unless you point out otherwise.  And don't be surprised if some of those high fliers are just trailer park kids like us. 

The people you want to be friends with are scummier, dirtier, and more corrupt than any street thugs or lowlifes you've ever met. They have more faces than a DnD die. If you think for a second they won't throw you under the bus to score points with someone slightly better, you're wrong. 

Keep all that in mind, always count your fingers after you shake hands. Don't show weakness, the other wannabe social climbers will smell it like blood to a shark. 

Never forget where you came from and the lessons you learned there.

Be mindful that powerful people are often powerful due to a combination of luck and enablement more than anything else. I don't mean that in a disparaging way, just as a general observation.

The prior comment that people are just people at the end of it all, and that you're probably not the only high flier to come from the trailer park bears repeating...as does the one about never underestimating someone else's willingness to throw you under the bus for their own personal gain.

tester (Forum Supporter) said:

This is the USA. Anybody can can be anything they want to be within the limits of their abilities, determination, and self discipline. You have transcended. Be who you are, an educated and successful adult with a unique background. 
 

 

I believe he's in Korea.

I'll agree with the sentiments above, that they are probably much like you.  It's silly, but remember they put their pants on one leg at a time.

Couple of other things to keep in mind, however:

1. Leaders are often very curt, no nonsense.  Most likely that comes from making decisions rapid fire and not having the time to chat through things.  Until you interact with them more and have developed a relationship, try to respect their time and keep things short.
2. I mean no disrespect when I say this, you probably don't do these things, but just in case.  Watch your language and war stories.  While they may cuss like sailors from the start, make sure to curb your language at first until you get to know them better.  I have a peer who, although we're all adults, will drop the f-bomb in meetings with leaders on a regular basis.  Nobody complains, but it's just not professional.  Along those lines, keep the war stories for yourself.  That party you attended with alcohol and drugs and strippers probably isn't good to bring up. 
3. Not sure how you interact with them, but if it's on social media type places, just be cautious of what you post.  LinkedIn is a good example of this as it's often a "business" version of Facebook.  Posts about the latest software release or how to manage people is fine.  Political rants are not. 
4. Listen.  A lot.  There will be nuggets of information on how they became what they are that will be valuable to file away.  Engage them with questions about their success.  Most people like to talk about themselves and will end up doing so for quite a while to an audience.  Once you understand them and what drives them, asking for advice will go a long way.
5. Good leaders know what they are good at and where they are not.  They ask questions and surround themselves with people who fill in those gaps.  Asking for advice shows that you think along those lines.  Knowing where they are lacking also gives you the opportunity to fill those gaps when needed.

Don't worry about your background.  You've gotten to where you are by the work you have done.  Make sure to listen more (at first).  A famous quote from Abraham Lincoln goes well here:

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt

-Rob

Wow... our lives are very similar.  I grew up on a farm in PA restoring tractors and thought that fashion was matching your walmart camo to the colors of the PA woods, I lucked into a great education, and I've had the opportunity to hobnob with some greats in multiple cities and countries.  Now that I'm back in PA, I'm sorta big in the Arts scene (which... in Harrisburg isn't that big of a deal).  

I find that dealing with the upper crust around here is easy after working with some bigger names around the world.  In fact it's somewhat refreshing.  The elite around central PA view themselves as highly important, and their financial status makes them think they are above the rest of us.  I just laugh and treat them like I would treat anyone else and they're not used to it.  They either respect it, or hate me because I don't kiss their ass, and frankly, I couldn't possibly care less.  After you've kicked a very well known celebrity out of your very hip Sunset Blvd bar, it's easy to tell my Mayor that he's a pile of E36 M3. 

I don't think I was ever really in fear of Icarusing, I think primarily because I'm confident in two things: 1) myself, and 2) that we're all just humans.  I found that the level of "known status" of a person has very little to do with their actual self, and power/celebrity is simply a crucible that boils down their true personality and you see what they're made of.  I remember the first time I was on a TV set in Los Angeles, and I was excited to meet the lead actress.  She wasn't well-known, but I had appreciated her work in a couple movies.  She walked out on set and condescendingly gave all us "littles" her resume, like "let's get this out of the way, yes I was in [movie] and yes I'm [insert respected musician]'s neice, so you don't need to ask those questions."  It was like this tiny, nobody actress who hadn't even put the wings on yet was already icarusing.  I no longer wanted to meet her.  

Just be aware of yourself.  You are never above anyone.  If you get so high that you have surpassed everyone, (regardless of luck or hard work) you are never ABOVE anyone.  Equally imortant... you are never BENEATH anyone either.  It doesn't matter if you are the President's best friend, you are a human.... nor does it matter if you are the president.  You're a human.

White guy in South Korea. Aside from military people, you are a novelty.  Don't think of that as a bad thing. Politely exploit that. 

I've met some very rich, powerful,  influential people. Some were awful. Some were completely unassuming. The "regular" guys made an impression on me. If you end up hanging around you'll be fine because you are aware of self, who you are. 

Personally, a friend said that I'm the same person at wedding as I am at a funeral.  I am me. I will treat a rich guy the same way I treat a hillbilly. How you carry yourself is what I notice.

If you do the same, you'll be fine. You won't forget yourself,  and where you came from. 

I've never treated the A-suite execs any different. Spent plenty of time chatting with CEOs, VPs,  minor celebs, politicians, and other odd power brokers. The good ones didn't demand respect, it was given to them by not being a schmuck. Do the same. I never asked any of them for anything, and that may have been why I was welcome. The ones I saw flame out got a superiority complex, which works if you are Elon Musk or Steve Jobs, but doesn't work out so well if you don't get to the "berkeley you" wealth level before it falls apart.

^ This.

The ones I deal with have been nice, down-to-earth people. Just treat them like you would anyone else and you'll receive the same in return.

I have found the self-made folks to be more like the average Joe. It's the second generation money that gets the F-you attitude.

RevRico said:

The people you want to be friends with are scummier, dirtier, and more corrupt than any street thugs or lowlifes you've ever met. They have more faces than a DnD die. If you think for a second they won't throw you under the bus to score points with someone slightly better, you're wrong. 

Keep all that in mind, always count your fingers after you shake hands. Don't show weakness, the other wannabe social climbers will smell it like blood to a shark. 

That is an excellent plan for failure, i'd say.

I'll add in my experience that you often have two types swimming in those upper level waters: doers and bullE36 M3ters.

Doers worked hard to get there. Treat them respectfully and professionally, but you usually don't have to walk on eggshells around them. You can be surprisingly candid. They will tend to prefer the honest truth. What is possible and what it will take to get that. Seek these people out and get in good with them. These people will (generally) *not* throw you under the bus.

BullE36 M3ters glom on to whoever they can, making connections, and brown nosing their way into positions of power/wealth/prestige. But they have done so usually with just the skill of managing up. Avoiding responsibility and obfuscating how little they actually do. They are usually very charming and good at telling people what they want to hear. But look out for people who tell you glowing stories of how it's going to be. Where something is "no problem", but who avoid making concrete statements of what they're going to do when. Learn how to work around these people and be very wary. They *will* throw you under the bus.

Edit: ...Not that this is particularly unique to the upper echelons.

Where you started is meaningless really unless you really like it and want to stay there.

I'm more lean towards society being kinda bullE36 M3 and to be unimpressed by people. Really that mindset isn't exactly terrible to have either

This is a fascinating thread, but I can't say I've ever had any of the concerns of the OP.  I've always been the most sophisticated, affluent, and educated individual in any of the circles in which I've ever moved.  What can I say, social climbers tend to be insincere and manipulative.  I like hanging out with real people.

I'm no fan of country music, but this obscure song by what's-his-name sure rings true to me. 

Yes, I have friends in low places.

They're just people - saints and sinners among them, just like the rest of us . Remember to be polite, but be yourself. Try to fit in in terms of what you're wearing, but you don't need to run out to Brooks Brothers. Many of them got there the same way you did.

This conversation reminds me of a conversation I once had at a trade show with the CEO of a US auto manufacture that shall remain nameless .

Me "Hi, I'm Steve.  It's nice to meet you.  What do you do for US auto manufacture that shall remain nameless?

CEO "I'm the CEO"

Both of us "So, nothing..."

Some heavy hitters are great people.  Some are not.  Just like, you know, people. 

I've professionally interacted with some, including a former presidential cabinet member. Professional, to the point, and not walking eggshells got it done for me. Not letting something go to my head and not succumbing to impropriety was pretty much it.

An aside for korea, norms differ culture to culture. There might be some specific stuff to unpack on that. I've had to trim behavior to different things for japanese, korean indian, turkish, etc.  That said, I haven't interacted with bigwigs from those places, but societal peers.

What's most troubling is the total lack of self worth showed by the question posted too

" I'm white trash garbage, will the shiny good people notice?"

Seriously, if you want advice......take a good hard look at that and think on it a lot. This is not thinking of any successful person

And remember this line from XKCD:

But I've never seen the Icarus story as a lesson about the limitations of humans. I see it as a lesson about the limitations of wax as an adhesive.

Icarus could have flown higher if he'd just waited to find a decent glue after escaping the island. I'm not sure how any of the myth applies to your situation, really. It doesn't sound like you've gotten where you are by backstabbing and stomping on toes, or otherwise put yourself in an unstable situation.

I remember my families first trailer. It was a step up from living with my grandparents. My mother grew from that trailer and being a single mom to an executive vice president of a national bank.

I came from that same trailer and have been a chef, lived in the Caribbean, and work on nuclear submarines.

I've flown so high not only did the wax of my wings melt but the feathers singed. I'll do it again tomorrow.

Be you. I wouldn't ask any less of someone.

Thanks for the advice guys. Thinking over the things people have said:

1. I'm not scared of these people, at least as far as their intelligence or work ethic. Honestly, one of the reasons I want to remain in these social circles is because a lot of these folks are smart, determined and disciplined in ways I recognize and admire. The film director I know, for example, put himself through film school by picking cabbage and sleeping on park benches. I'm much more comfortable with things like that than the endless coulda-shoulda-woulda nonsense the "prodigies" I know from my childhood talk about. 

2. I think I need to start thinking of myself as a quasi-public figure and measure my words with the caution public figures tend to exercise. I do cuss too much and while I don't have many debauched, decadent stories about strippers and drugs, I do have a lot of stories about murders, rapes, gangsters and people from religious cults. I think I need to be careful how and when those stories come out. 

3. Not asking people for things just because they're high ranking. I've been careful to avoid this and what you guys said seems to confirm my suspicion that mooching is a poor long-term strategy. I get the feeling a lot of these people get asked for a lot of favors by a lot of subordinates.

4. White guy in Korea stuff - this is a big deal. The more I think about it, I suspect a big reason I'm meeting these people is because I've built a reputation as "not a normal westerner." I built this reputation in part because I disapproved of of lot of the things my western peers tended to do - judge the natives, never learn the language, never learn the culture or history, act as if their lives had value just be default - but if it's working, I should probably keep going. A lot of the seemingly weird, really niche stuff I've done has been to fill in gaps that other westerners won't fill and it seems to be working. 

5. I am scared of these people in the ways they present themselves - particularly the ways they dress. I've gotten fired for not having nice enough clothes before, so I might be over reacting or sensitive on this point. I have gotten better, but I think I still need to work on presentation. 

6. I'm curious about what you guys mean by "being yourself." I've always thought of "myself" as the sum total of my choices and, as such, something I could change whenever I wanted by making new choices. If you mean "spineless simpering sycophant," I don't think that's a problem I have. If by "be yourself" you mean "represent your roots," why?

In reply to DaewooOfDeath :

I think by "be yourself" it means... do the things you do. Have integrity. Have self respect. I think a big part of it is that you've gotten this far by doing what you're doing. Keep that up. It's worked well to this point. Don't suddenly start second-guessing yourself.

Don't look at somebody with power/wealth/prestige and second guess who you're "supposed" to be and change things up and pretend to be something you're not for every individual.

Obviously you do need to adjust your presentation based on the audience. Sometimes you have to be more formal. But still be honestly yourself even when you change the level of formality.

I agree, and "being yourself" can in many ways be an active choice.  I'm not saying a tiger can change its stripes overnight, but as Daewoo and I have both demonstrated, from humble beginnings we have chosen to become different than our walmart camo formative years might suggest.  (but I still sometimes buy my camo from WalMart, for the record)

I am saying that being yourself is 10 parts knowing yourself and 1 part active choice.  You can actively choose to be more [insert personality trait you want to possess]

My former SWMBO is now my best friend for the simple reason that I completely respect her self-awareness.  She will beat you over the head with her opinion when she knows she's right (which is most of the time) but she is the first to say "That is not my strong suit, so I need help with that."  Knowing yourself is the first step toward being yourself.  She's the ultimate employee.  You can give her a project, and if she doesn't ask questions, you know it will be done in the best way.  If she asks questions, it's because she needs to learn how to do it the best way.  Either way, she gets E36 M3 done.

That's what I really find in people I respect.  I can't tolerate people who try desperately to fit in (probably because I'm a little like that myself).  Being you means that not everyone will like you.  Trying to get everyone to like you is the very path toward Icarus-ism.  You'll elevate yourself to the point where you have nowhere to go, and suddenly it will seem like no one likes you.  That was me in High School.  I competed for attention and tried to raise myself in the eyes of everyone else, but my glue was made of wax and everyone could see it.

I think looking for advice from western society on how to survive an asian/eastern business culture is maybe not going to be that helpful.

I would value the input of Koreans, or those intimately aware of the nuances of the culture, as your best source of input.