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mtn
mtn MegaDork
6/14/23 1:16 p.m.

Wow, a lot of stuff going on here. My opinions: 

  • Teams is a powerful tool, but the integration with sharepoint and outlook sucks. I would much prefer everything to be accessed via File explorer. Perhaps that is because I grew up using it, but it is much easier for me to visualize the organization that way. 
  • I am indifferent for Teams vs Zoom vs WebEx. All are fine. 
  • I like video calls for collaboration, even more than in person. It is easier to see what is going on when I have it on my own desktop. Heck, with my last team, even when we were all in the same room around the same table we would still join a Teams call just to have the visualization on our desktops. For the "other stuff" and facetime and networking, in person is obviously better, but for sharing ideas and solving problems, the video call is often better. But even that is company culture dependent.  
  • Chats are great for quick things, they also open up the ability to quickly collaborate with multiple people at once. But you have to know when and where it is best used. I also like it for the "hey, got a minute?" - easier than scheduling a meeting, great for ad-hoc requests. Basically the virtual replacement to walking over to someones desk. 
  • These are not all that hard to operate. Kind of like driving a stick shift as a valet driver, honestly - if you don't know how, you need to learn. If you can't learn, then you're not right for the job. 
  • I've worked with as many Millennials and Gen Xers who can't use the software as I have Boomers. If someone doesn't want to learn, it doesn't matter when they were born. Boomers may be a little bit slower on the uptake on average, but most of them that are still around that I've worked with in the past 5 years have forgotten more than I'll ever know... And some of them are absolute wizards with all of this software. Those that are bad with it, are scared of it and just don't want to change.
  • Chronic CEOs are not good for business. I want the CEO to have started at the bottom. I want them to know the product/service inside and out, or at least know how to delegate to people that do. And I also think that their pay has become ridiculous. Nobody is worth that much to a company.
  • Jack Welch was bad for businesses. He turned basically all major businesses into finance companies rather than whatever it was that they were doing. 
  • EPIC sucks. My Boomer MIL had to have my wife teach it to her. I watched. It is just a terrible system overall, the fact that it is the best is another indictment on our healthcare system. 
SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
6/14/23 1:50 p.m.

I agree that CEO pay has gotten ridiculous. 
 

I REALLY don't want a CEO who has worked his way through the ranks. Nope, nope, nope.  It's a completely different skill set, and the truth is that very few people ever successfully make the transition. 
 

I want a CEO who is a visionary. I want one who inspires people to excel and use their gifts well. I want a CEO with a solid business understanding, and the skills and connections to offer great leadership. I want a CEO who knows how to position the company for success, growth, and greatness. I want a CEO who can navigate the politics of international trade, corporate structuring, taxation, production systems, and balance sheets. I want a CEO who knows how to put good people in positions where they can succeed and benefit the company. 
 

And once she's in place, I want her to be strong enough to fire dead wood, unproductive people, and naysayers who undermine the health of the company because they think her job is easy and she's paid too much. 

Racebrick
Racebrick Reader
6/14/23 1:57 p.m.

Working in an office sounds terrible.

wae
wae PowerDork
6/14/23 1:59 p.m.
mtn said:
  • Jack Welch was bad for businesses. He turned basically all major businesses into finance companies rather than whatever it was that they were doing. 

I only regret that I have but one thumbs-up to give.  We live in a very GE-centric town - or at least it was - and that mentality escaped the lab, as it were, and infected a lot of mid-size organizations here.  Frankly, GE survived in spite of Welch and the trauma that they've been going through for the last few years is nothing more than the chickens coming home to roost.

TR7
TR7 Reader
6/14/23 2:01 p.m.

Sidenote on EPIC, has anyone ever seen their HQ in Wisconsin? Place is like Disneyworld with fewer rides. 

mtn
mtn MegaDork
6/14/23 2:03 p.m.

In reply to TR7 :

Friend of the family was Judy's right hand man, and the building-planner or something like that. Absolutely insane campus. 

Ranger50
Ranger50 MegaDork
6/14/23 2:10 p.m.

In reply to mtn :

Re: boomers/millennials/gen z/er al.

The newer generations just can't seem to grasp a concept that isn't an app that basically does things for them and that's why they struggle with normal computer programs. They are plenty tech savvy, just application stupid. And boomers will just like paper and pencil more times than not.

Re EPIC.

Epic is a much better interface than the other products, ie Cerner, wellsoft, meditech, etc. Cerner is a whole bunch of checkboxes that seem to be yes or no and only grouped within a system. Epic at least allows you to use a mouse within a more confined space to make documentation much easier. I've used Cerner for 8 years. I'm like a super user because when it rolled out at my old staff job, I failed to listen during the rollout classes and found out how to use it on my own. I've self taught myself how to use epic through two different travel nursing assignments. Both have their hood and bad. I can use either proficiently.

pheller
pheller UltimaDork
6/14/23 3:02 p.m.

I don't care about CEO pay until they benefit from failing companies. That's hard too, because sometimes the CEO is the last one out and turns off the lights of a company they were hired to close and their job was merely to minimize the pain in doing so. 

I'm pretty happy with my current company's desire to "tow people up the corporate ladder". When someone gets a promotion they typically choose someone in their former team to be their successor. Our CEO did that when he left to sit on the board of our larger conglomerate. 

This works because it allows our company to get a good handle on people's leadership styles while mentoring them with a proven, successful formula. 

Our current CEO was an Electrical Engineer for 14 years before she started climbing the corporate ladder. People who work with her always commend her willingness to hear all complaints. She's been described as aligning with ideals of "candidness as commitment". IE, I wont judge you for telling me the trust as long as you're respectful in doing so. 

Closer to me, my Senior Director of Operations started with our company digging holes. He prioritizes our field staff the most. Definitely a "bottom up" leadership style. 

Being a utility, their goal is to provide the best service possible, and the only way you do that is via happy employees. They give us all the tools necessary and see how it shakes out. What types of technology and communication settles to the top. How many people like something? How many dont? What would they prefer? 

Occasionally an old timer will complain that our company has lost its connection. We don't have parties or barbecues anymore. We benefit from corporate funding, but they also ask we do things consistent with industry trends and standards. 

I suppose the downside with technology being a bigger part of our daily work lives is that at the lower levels of management, a guy can go from working in the field to being a supervisor to very quickly being an operations manager, and doing it so rapidly that he never learns how to effectively use emails or calenders or Teams. The Peter Principal is still alive and well in this regard. Once people are in those roles, the company struggles to demote them. It just hopes it can provide some sort of backstop until they come up to speed. In today's quickly evolving business world, I'm not sure that's ideal. 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
6/14/23 4:16 p.m.
j_tso said:

"Can I call ?" is just a useless pleasantry

Agreed.  Just do it.  I dont want to give people another hurdle to clear just to speak to me.  These tools exist to improve communication, not put up additional barriers. 

j_tso said:

"I need to ask you about ______, call me next chance you get or at XX:XX" is more helpful.

This is ok, but if I am getting that specific (time), I'll just send a meeting request.

On that note office people:  accept or decline your meeting requests.  

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
6/14/23 4:26 p.m.

The attitudes about "Can I call...?" Baffle me. 
 

When someone asks me that  I hear "I need a few minutes to talk with you about something, and I don't want to interrupt. Is now a good time, or should I call back later?"

Just sounds courteous and respectful to me.

Y'all do you. 

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
6/14/23 4:36 p.m.
Toyman! said:

I use chat and texts with my kids and friends. If you want to do business with me, do not use those platforms. It is unprofessional and disorganized. Wandering back through a group text or chat to find information is a waste of my time. If a business sends me a text or a chat request, I usually ignore it. 

If you want to contact me directly, use email, I check it every hour or so during business hours. It is a searchable platform and easily organized. If you need instant information, use the phone. If I'm not already busy, I'll answer it. If I'm busy I'll return your call as soon as I have time. If I'm too busy to talk, I'm certainly too busy to text or chat. 

In the real world, I probably don't need to talk to you and you don't need to talk to me. I am probably in the middle of something that needs my undivided attention so a better bet is to send my admin an email or call her on the office line. I hired her and pay her a good salary to take care of the everyday tasks like scheduling service, invoicing, answering questions about deliveries, and weeding out the time wasters so I can spend my time on the tasks she can't do. She will get you taken care of faster than I will and won't lose the scribbled Post-it note on her desk and forget about you. There is a good chance I'm going to have to ask her to answer your questions anyway because I probably don't know. She is also smart enough to know if I need to be interrupted to handle something immediately and will do so when required. 

Teams meeting have become the bane of professionals. Doubly true when dealing with government employees. How many times have you thought to yourself that this meeting should have been an email? Just about every Teams meeting I attend could have been an email. Unfortunately, it's so easy to send out the invites that's what people do. They get to feel important for 30 seconds because they called a meeting. They get to tell people they are busy in a meeting. Everyone knows that important people have meetings. I have gone from 1-2 reasonably important in-person meetings a month and 100s of emails, to 1-2 Teams meeting a week and even more emails to recap the stupid meetings. It's a waste of time. Just send me the email. I don't want to listen to you spout off all the synergistic words you learned at college about being a team player and being there for the good of the group. Think of me as Jo Friday. "Just the facts, Mam." Preferably in a set of specs, plans, or an email. 

My calendar is my company's calendar. It is usually on display on a 40" TV to the right of my desk. It is also available by phone app to everyone who works for me. As is the list of every job, service call, or anything the company does. My people seldom call me wondering what to do. They have the list. They have the calendar. They call me to tell me what they are planning and ask if there is anything that needs to happen first.

As an add, our business hours are 8 am to 4 pm Monday through Friday. I work during those hours. Not before. Not after. I do not live to work. If you email me at 4:30, don't expect an answer before 8:30 am. If you call me after hours, don't expect me to answer. I pay someone to answer the office phones for after-hours emergency calls. They are who you need to talk to. Call them. If you call my cell phone thinking you will get faster service from the owner, the odds are high that you are wrong. I don't check my phone often on the weekends because I pay someone else to do that. So when you leave a message I probably won't see it for an hour or two and then I'm going to forward it to the guy you should have called in the first place.

I guess my point is, if you don't like a boss that doesn't communicate the way you do, you may have contacted the wrong person. Many bosses are purposely difficult to get in touch with or schedule with because they have someone else you should have contacted. Someone who was hired to manage and handle your problem so the boss can do other things. Don't take it personally. The boss has a limited amount of time in a day and frequently a large number of tasks to get done. I don't know about the rest of them, but I don't like working late either. 

 

@ Toyman.  I completely Agree.    

To everyone else.

I am the Boss. I own the company.  I took the risk and ate ramen and PB&J's.  for months and years.  A hot dog dinner on the grill was a luxury for me and my very young family.  I was scared sh!|less but I also believed in my self.   I risked it all to be where I am now.  My opinion is that if you are going to come crying to me about how communications are being made get over yourself.  It really sounds like you are looking for a participation trophy.  It just looks to me like you have to much time on your hands worrying about this stuff. 

My other statement to these types of people is if you don't like how I run my company and you think you can do it better that is great.  Go start your own company.  Try being the boss for a while.  No hard feelings.  Maybe I will apply for a job at your company and we can do it your way.

For the vast majority of those people that think that they can be better bosses / company owners, you are just so wrong.  If you were correct there would be many more small successful businesses.  But there are not.  Why? Because running a sucessful buisness is REALLY hard and even those that are capable just have bad luck.  Another thing I see alot is that those that complain the loudest about the boss / company owners just don't seem to have the intestinal fortitude to take the risk and start a business.  My answer to them is nut up or shut up.  Seriously try being the boss.  You probably have no idea how much bosses/me really care about my employees.  Because what I do not only effects them but their families their kids and so on.   I have paid employees out of pocket for many months during the pandemic instead of kicking them to the curb.  I did not take one single penny of the government money being handed out either.  And yet here we are with those that were so scared that their next paycheck was going to be their last paycheck and are now demanding that companies and there owners change for them.  WTF... ..    As you can see this really pisses me off.  

My reaction to the OP is to get over yourself and get back to work.  Don't blame the bosses for the cluster f&*k that the workplace environment has become.  You all might want to look at your own generation that has forced this mess on us owners/bosses and your co-workers while the company owners are just trying to keep everyone happy. 

It is so easy to just blame other generations when the generation that is complaining the loudest really should be looking at them self as the problem and figuring out a way to fix them instead of blaming everyone else.

A funny story.  A long time ago people were grumbling about things and how they wanted change in a company where I was the Sr. VP.  So in the monthly staff meeting, I put it out there that I was aware of the stuff people were complaining about and that I would effectively immediately create a position as my assistant that was open to anyone to apply for.  Their task would be to work with me for two weeks to learn what I do and see the inner workings of the company and then they would be tasked with addressing all the issues that people were raising and complaining about.  No one applied.  All they want to do is complain no one wants to be part of the solution.  I think it is because they may not like the solution.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
6/14/23 4:45 p.m.

In reply to dean1484 :

Bravo!

tester (Forum Supporter)
tester (Forum Supporter) Reader
6/14/23 5:22 p.m.

In reply to wae :

Yes. Welch squeezed the golden eggs by ringing the goose's neck. 

759NRNG
759NRNG PowerDork
6/14/23 8:03 p.m.

dean1484 what exactly is your 'business'?

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones SuperDork
6/14/23 9:02 p.m.

I'm another business owner and Dean is spot on. If you can do it better, put on your big boy pants, and take the risk, we did. 

Wally (Forum Supporter)
Wally (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/15/23 10:07 a.m.

In reply to Steve_Jones :

There are two different types of bosses, the ones like Dean is talking about aren't generally the ones getting complained about here. Large companies are generally now run by people that came in from the outside, have little if any personal investment, and do a lot of things for the sake of looking like they do something. They're usually the several layers of bureaucracy between the people doing the actual work and the people ultimately in charge. 

 

People that built a business and have something to lose often have a different mentality, as failure isn't going to get them a severance package and a fairly soft landing somewhere else. 

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
6/15/23 12:56 p.m.
dean1484 said:

I am the Boss. I own the company.  I took the risk and ate ramen and PB&J's.  for months and years.  A hot dog dinner on the grill was a luxury for me and my very young family.  I was scared sh!|less but I also believed in my self.   I risked it all to be where I am now.  My opinion is that if you are going to come crying to me about how communications are being made get over yourself.  It really sounds like you are looking for a participation trophy.  It just looks to me like you have to much time on your hands worrying about this stuff.

No offense but this sounds like a terrible attitude to take. If someone has a suggestion to improve the efficiency of communication within a company, maybe it is worth considering rather then just dismissing it as go start your own company. Just cause someone doesn't want to start their own company doesn't mean they don't have ideas that could contribute to improving your company. 

Datsun310Guy
Datsun310Guy MegaDork
6/15/23 1:17 p.m.
 
Toyman! said:

It's also the management's job to set up a system where it's easy to succeed instead of easy to fail and that frequently doesn't happen.

if external variables don't change life is good but that's not realistic.  These curve balls are a challenge that causes massive changes to your plan. 

  1. Unintended acceleration at Audi
  2. Toyota floor mats stuck under the accelerator 
  3. Tylenol pills stuffed with poison
  4. Taketa airbags blowing out metal shavings
  5. Ayds diet supplement - we looking good until the crisis
  6. covid 
SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
6/15/23 1:21 p.m.

In reply to 93EXCivic :

There is an enormous difference between suggesting an improvement and implementing one.

The OP was clearly referring to implementation, and criticizing the boss for not being savy in the specific software he preferred. 
 

Yes, you are right. It's wise to listen to your staff (though not always possible or practical).  However, the decisions on how to implement processes ultimately lie in the boss' hands (though he may choose to delegate).

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
6/15/23 1:22 p.m.

In reply to 93EXCivic :

Oh, and "no offense but..." and "terrible attitude" don't belong in the same sentence.  Let's not pretend that's not offensive. 

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
6/15/23 1:51 p.m.

Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
6/15/23 2:12 p.m.
Datsun310Guy said:
 
Toyman! said:

It's also the management's job to set up a system where it's easy to succeed instead of easy to fail and that frequently doesn't happen.

if external variables don't change life is good but that's not realistic.  These curve balls are a challenge that causes massive changes to your plan. 

  1. Unintended acceleration at Audi
  2. Toyota floor mats stuck under the accelerator 
  3. Tylenol pills stuffed with poison
  4. Taketa airbags blowing out metal shavings
  5. Ayds diet supplement - we looking good until the crisis
  6. covid 

Audi, Toyota, and Taketa were all probably failures in the design stages. Somewhere, the companies set their employees up to fail. Maybe as simple as rushing products to market without adequate testing or ignoring issues and sweeping them under the rug until they blow up. 

Tylenol management jumped in with government to solved their problem. As such they haven't suffered any long term effects. That set the company and their employees up for success. 

Ayds' name choice was unfortunate but it took them 7-8 years to finally do something about it and even then they didn't do enough. That's management, setting the company up to fail.

Covid? There are a lot of companies that came out of the back side of Covid much stronger than they went in. Myself included. Once again management setting up the company and the employees for success instead of failure. While I can't take credit for amazing ideas for how to respond to Covid, I did manage to choose a fairly ression proof business that is in demand no matter what the rest of the world is doing. We went to 4 days for about 3 months and when the hospitals and medical professionals were throwing around government money I was standing there to help them solve their problems. From there on out it's been nothing but wide open. 

Managements entire reason for existence is to keep the company moving forward. There are always unexpected issues. How the management responds to them determines how the employees respond and can either set them up to succeed or to fail. 

 

Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
6/15/23 2:21 p.m.

Here is a case and point. This is how management sets everyone up to succeed. 

Tylenol.

The murders started in 1982. The companies response was as follows. Taken from here

...the company took an active role with the media in issuing mass warning communications and immediately called for a massive recall of the more than 31 million bottles of Tylenol in circulation. Tainted capsules were discovered in early October in a few other grocery stores and drug stores in the Chicago area, but, fortunately, they had not yet been sold or consumed. McNeill and Johnson & Johnson offered replacement capsules to those who turned in pills already purchased and a reward for anyone with information leading to the apprehension of the individual or people involved in these random murders.

Before the 1982 crisis, Tylenol controlled more than 35 percent of the over-the-counter pain reliever market; only a few weeks after the murders, that number plummeted to less than 8 percent. The dire situation, both in terms of human life and business, made it imperative that the Johnson & Johnson executives respond swiftly and authoritatively.

For example, Johnson & Johnson developed new product protection methods and ironclad pledges to do better in protecting their consumers in the future. Working with FDA officials, they introduced a new tamper-proof packaging, which included foil seals and other features that made it obvious to a consumer if foul play had transpired. 

 

Within a year, and after an investment of more than $100 million, Tylenol’s sales rebounded to its healthy past and it became, once again, the nation’s favorite over-the-counter pain reliever. Critics who had prematurely announced the death of the brand Tylenol were now praising the company’s handling of the matter. Indeed, the Johnson & Johnson recall became a classic case study in business schools across the nation.

 

Duke
Duke MegaDork
6/16/23 9:02 a.m.
Steve_Jones said:

I'm another business owner and Dean is spot on. If you can do it better, put on your big boy pants, and take the risk, we did. 

I don't get the vitriol from bosses here.

The OP wasn't "Dear boss, you're an idiot and you make bad decisions."

The OP was "Dear boss, in the current time there are a number of fairly easy options that can radically improve the efficiency of our business communication so we can work more effectively for you. How about trying some?"

[edit] Also note that there are at least 2 discussions going on here. The OP was about various channels for efficient communication.  The subdiscussion is about abuse of communication in general.

 

RevRico
RevRico MegaDork
6/16/23 10:12 a.m.
Steve_Jones said:

I'm another business owner and Dean is spot on. If you can do it better, put on your big boy pants, and take the risk, we did. 

Your both small business owners (I assume you aren't international fortune 500 listed, I don't honestly know). This conversation is about the multinational corporate E36 M3holes, that everybody hates yet also somehow/some reason works for. 

Very very very different when you're the owner  and boss of a few dozen versus one of a million interchangeable cogs hooked on buzz words And slave to shareholders and corporate financiers.

 

This thread is really convincing me further that office jobs aren't real jobs, they're just an excuse to hide profits and embezzling.

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