CAD Recommendations?

We've discussed this before... thanks for indulging me.

I have 20 years experience with a program called SoftPlan. It is geared toward builders, for generating fast architectural drawings. It does what I need very well, but I got annoyed a couple of years ago with some of it's quirks, and do not have a working system right now. I need one.

The problems I had with SoftPlan:

• They are paranoid about security, and use antiquated methods to protect their software, including a physical key (which is easy to loose, misplace, etc).

• It doesn't play well with more mainstream systems (like AutoDesk products, etc.). I can't share drawing files with people who don't have it, and I can't read .dwg drawings.

• It is PC only, and I switched to a Mac.

• At the core, it is still DOS based, and is clunky.

My needs:

• I need to get going FAST. A long learning curve won't work. I need to be completing basic floorplans in less than a week.

• I need to generate floorplans quickly, and occasional elevations. 3D rendering is nice, but I rarely use it. I rarely give enough time to a drawing to give the computer enough information to draw complicated roofs, etc.

• I need to draw with pre-determined wall and component systems, not lines.

• I draw basic presentational concept stuff only. I will hire an architect for more details.

• I need to be able to read and/or edit .dwg drawings. I would like to be able to exchange files with majority of users in the construction industry (most use older versions of AutoCad or other AutoDesk products). Mostly large files.

• I would prefer something I can use on a Mac, but will get a desktop PC if necessary.

• I would like something that has a good portable tablet component.

• Occasional crude mechanical drawing is possible, but not necessary.

• I need a basic library of architectural symbols. Don't have time to draw a lot of them from scratch.

• Cost point- I need to keep the initial purchase under $1500, preferable under $500. Can expand later.

Some options:

• SoftPlan is my fastest start with the shortest learning curve. A new version and a base model PC and I am up and running. It doesn't solve my other problems.

• Revit Architecture is an option, and I can get a student edition for 3 years. It's the cadillac. Not sure about the learning curve or using on a Mac.

• I am confused by the vast array of AutoDesk products. I can't figure out where to start.

• I tried SketchUp. Didn't work for me. Not opposed to trying again, but ...

• I am completely unfamiliar with anything that is native to Mac. Thoughts?

Thanks for you help. Ready, set, GO....

I'm familiar with Revit as we use it at work (although I still mainly use ACAD). It is a very powerful tool, but the most important thing to know about is it's NOT a drawing program - it's a modeling program. It creates architectural models. If you want to be able to quickly sketch something up - forget it. Also - the MEP parts is an entirely separate program ($$$$$).

The learning curve for the Arch isn't too bad, but professional training is almost mandatory. Intuitive it is not. I don't know what your budget is, but the cost is substantial and it wants a PC with serious horsepower and RAM. We pretty much have to upgrade our CAD stations every 3 years to keep up with the CPU demands of each update. It'll run on lesser stations, but performance can get frustrating. Revit files can be massive - like well into 100MB for larger building. Even small partial renovation models are over 20MB.

We do almost of all of our architectural work in Revit and then export it to ACAD for us MEP guys. The Revit MEP program is still not quite 'there' yet (and it's frustrating to have to model the electrical system for half the friggen building to add a few receptacles or lights), but it's getting better and it's great for certain things - like when you need to coordinate various services in a tight space. It's ability to cut sections anywhere and everywhere instantly can be a godsend. I'm working on a project right now where I really wish we'd done it in Revit as I'm trying to fish cable tray through 4 layers of ductwork...

ACAD is what it's always been. We're running Release 2013 and it's pretty stable. Fairly intuitive to use, although 3rd party (or in-house developed like we have) LISP routine add-ons will greatly help consistency and productivity. Again, the main downside is cost: deep into 4-figures - I think the last quote I heard was each license we buy is around $5K. There is a Mac version available after many years of asking for it.

I've been pondering TurboCAD Deluxe for home use and when the ex-g/f was still trying to get her engineering business going. It'll read/write .dwg files. Has some 3D ability and costs substantially less than ACAD. But having access to ACAD at work, I haven't spent the money yet to know how compatible it truly is.

In reply to Ian F:

Good input. OK, Revit is out. Don't need a modeling program, need a drawing program.

MEP is not something I need- I would have used is about 3 times in the last 20 years if I had it.

Is ACAD shorthand for AutoCad?

How about AutoCad Architech?

What do you like about TurboCAD?

AutoCad Architecture used to be called Architectural Desktop (ADT). I used ADT through the first six or seven generations of the software then switched to using Revit 99% of the time.

Both of these are enormously complicated and equally powerful. Hitting the ground running with either one simply isn't gonna happen. Autodesk is in the software subscription business. They will milk you like a cow year after year.

I have not personally spent time with it but I have a couple contractor friends who swear by Chief Architect. It is well above your budget (but under 2k), but it will do everything you are asking for, and do it efficiently. There is even a DIY version that is far cheaper, too - and a rebate if you like the DIY version but want to upgrade to the full kit. Imports or exports AutoCad format. Requires boot camp to run on a Mac.

Hope this helps despite no personal experience with the recommendation.

In reply to OHSCrifle:

OHSCrifle wrote: - Both of these are enormously complicated and equally powerful. Hitting the ground running with either one simply isn't gonna happen. - Autodesk is in the software subscription business. They will milk you like a cow year after year.

Also good input. Thanks.

OHSCrifle wrote: Contractor friends who swear by Chief Architect. It is well above your budget (but under 2k), but it will do everything you are asking for, and do it efficiently. There is even a DIY version that is far cheaper, too - and a rebate if you like the DIY version but want to upgrade to the full kit. Imports or exports AutoCad format. Requires boot camp to run on a Mac.

I guess I should clarify my price...

I said "initial". I understand that full blown decent systems cost more, and I can expand and pay it over time. Just can't do it now.

So, if there was a student/ teacher version (I am both), a demo with a 3 month or more trial, a subscription that had a reasonable monthly cost with minimal up-front, or any other option, it would be OK.

I have found boot camp to be a PITA. If it comes to that, I'd rather get a PC.

I will look into Chief Architect. Thx.

Turbocad is less than $500, completely acad compatible and has great help menus plus a big online community. I buy a new version probably every couple of years. I must say I don't know if there is a Mac version but it is a large program and I mostly run it on a dedicated laptop anyway.

Looks like they have an edu program

http://www.chiefarchitect.com/academic/product-pricing.html

Thread from the consumer's point of view regarding (a presumably new / updated) version of SoftPlan- http://www.roadraceautox.com/showthread.php?t=46919

DILYSI Dave wrote: Thread from the consumer's point of view regarding (a presumably new / updated) version of SoftPlan- http://www.roadraceautox.com/showthread.php?t=46919

Thanks.

He is a very advanced SoftPlan user. It can do that stuff, but it takes a lot of time.

This drawing is one of those things that kind of annoy me (about all 3D systems):

That picture looks cool to customers, but it can't be built that way. That roof would collapse.

(Sigh)... I gotta remember it's a sales tool, not a technical tool.

In reply to DILYSI Dave:

Thanks for the link. It is good to see what customers think of this stuff.

OHSCrifle wrote: Looks like they have an edu program http://www.chiefarchitect.com/academic/product-pricing.html

Yeah, but that is a pretty massive watermark they put across the drawings. Might not work...

I've only used it a couple of times, so I'm not too sure how powerful it is, but there is a free 2d CAD program made by the company that makes SolidWorks.
It will open and edit and save AutoCad .dwg files.
Did I mention it's free?

It is called DraftSight. http://www.3ds.com/products-services/draftsight/

In reply to SVreX:

What I like about TurboCAD is is the price and supposed compatibility with ACAD (yes: ACAD short for AutoCAD).

Yes, "Architect" is tuned for architectural drawing, ACAD MEP is for MEP work (what I do).

http://www.turbocad.com

Pro is ~$500. Deluxe is ~$200. It sounds like Deluxe will do what you need. They have offered Mac versions since the beginning.

I agree AutoDesk are money whores. I can imagine my company's yearly subscription check has to be painful to write. And they nail you on upgrades... We try to upgrade every-other version, although some are better than others and engineers tend to be change-adverse...

Looks like a lot of the companies are focusing on 3D. TurboCAD, Chief Architect, SoftPlan, etc...

2D is really all I need. But it would be really nice to have the capability to expand to 3D later (2-3 years)

I can't really say anything about the contenders that hasn't already been covered well above. Both Revit and AutoCAD are the 900-pound gorillas of the industry, whether in terms of market share, learning curve, or cost.

But let me say this: 3D is the future. You may not think you need it now, but you will, and as you learn, you'll wonder why you didn't before. Being able to draft/model in 3D is not only a sales tool for others, but a working tool for yourself. As an architect I have decades of experience with abstract thinking in 3 dimensions. However, it's incredibly helpful being able to model the building as you're drafting it up, cut sections anywhere you want, any time, and then have those sections update themselves as the plan changes.

Where the promise of all this falls apart is when it comes to the jump between design and construction drawings. We're still 10 years away from that being anything but really clunky. It will get there, though.

In reply to Duke:

The other potential issue with 3D - at least from the MEP side - is the ability to design something that will physically fit into a particular space, but is hell to actually build. A buddy of mine from the console gaming industry told a funny story about that 15 years ago. Their industrial designers would stuff 9.9 lbs into a 10 lb box, but is was impossible to actually assemble the pieces in the real world.

I fear that's where I'll be with the project I mentioned above. The duct work and cable tray will be installed before the equipment that uses the cable tray will be delivered and installed... How the contractors will physically get to the tray and install the power and control cables buried behind all of the duct work, I have no idea... They'll need to hire some small, skinny and flexible guys...

Duke wrote: I can't really say anything about the contenders that hasn't already been covered well above. Both Revit and AutoCAD are the 900-pound gorillas of the industry, whether in terms of market share, learning curve, or cost. But let me say this: **3D is the future.** You may not think you need it now, but you will, and as you learn, you'll wonder why you didn't before. Being able to draft/model in 3D is not only a sales tool for others, but a working tool for yourself. As an architect I have decades of experience with abstract thinking in 3 dimensions. However, it's incredibly helpful being able to model the building as you're drafting it up, cut sections *anywhere you want, any time,* and then have those sections update themselves as the plan changes. Where the promise of all this falls apart is when it comes to the jump between design and construction drawings. We're still 10 years away from that being anything but really clunky. It will get there, though.

Very good word. Thanks, Duke.

You are completely correct. What I am weighing is probably less about the long term value or industry future/ viability then it is about my own future.

I am on the "past prime" side of the equation. The industry's future is very important to the 20 and 30 somethings, but I am less concerned about where things will be in 20 years than I am about how to have the tools I will need to survive for the next few years.

I won't be building a successful construction business again. There is a new paradigm, which I am too old to capitalize on. I understand it fully (much better than most), and know what it would take to succeed. It's exciting, and if I could find a younger company to bring my skills and expertise to, it would be very rewarding for both of us. But there just are not enough years left for me to make the transition well in my own company.

I will be working in my W-2 job for a while, and selling a little bit of construction services on the side. I will need to give my employers what they need from me, and communicate with customers.

I am looking to have the tools in place for me to survive, and a little less concerned about "the future".

Like you, I have many years of experience, and am completely capable of understanding and planning most projects of reasonable levels of complexity without good integration of these tools. I see in 3D, with excellent visualization ability. But most folks don't. No doubt- the industry future is gonna require it. Paul's future, however, will only require a scaled down version of it.

I use SolidWorks daily and have for about 12 years. But I knew how to design stuff that could be made a long time before that.

3D CAD is a phenomenal tool for A DESIGNER. 3D CAD does not do the design work, however, and "automating design" is how you end up with stuff that looks like Dyson vacuum cleaners.

CAD is just a better pencil. The newly-minted mechanical engineers who don't know how to make anything are getting used to modeling stuff that can only be made by 3D printing - things that can't be machined and would require incalculably complex and expensive injection molds. This is a problem I face daily.

In reply to motomoron:

Interesting (and accurate) distinction. Thanks.

I'm with you. I've been a designer for 30 years. Just looking for the right pencil.

Which is also why 3D is less important to me. Nice tool, but not my primary need.

Autocad products are industry standard for designing, building and maintaining state of the art Data Center's.

2nd Draftsight. I'm an engineering manager in Ontario, and we no longer use Autodesk products - Draftsight is free, compatible with AutoCAD (dwg and dxf), and nearly equal to AutoCAD in capability for our purposes. Try it!

That said, Solidworks (3d) is our primary design tool (automated machinery).

+1 to Draftsight. Like AutoCAD, but better, and free.

There is a free 2d Version of Solid Edge as well. It allows parametric sketches, but it less auto-cad like. It can do all the blocks/groups/etc. though.

If you want to go 3d at some point, but like 2D autocad-type work in the meantime... Rhino is a decent option. Tons of plug-ins and a very powerful program. If you work in the "top" view, its exactly like AutoCAD/Draftsight (same text commands). If you want to go 3d at any point, its a piece of cake. It can also render, do motion, etc. etc. Not a good mechanical design program though, as it isn't parametric (there's a plugin for that though)

Draftsight is a pretty simple version of an Autocad program, but effective if it's all you need.

In reply to BAMF:

Yeah... after a look at the Draftsight feature page, it sounds fine for doing rudimentary sketching, but it doesn't appear to do external reference files. I can't imagine trying to do architectural drafting without xrefs. It just makes file management so much easier.

Xrefs sound nice, but are probably way past anything I will ever need.