Classified Documents

Ok, serious question, and seriously not political, so don't make it political.  
I don't know how many, but a number of classified documents have been found in Biden's possession, I think some/most/all? of them were from his time as VP.
Trump had a lot of classified documents in his possession after his term ended.
Hillary Clinton was sending classified docs through unsecured e-mail accounts. 

I'm pretty sure now that every president, VP, first lady, and security guards third-grade locker partner has classified documents in their possession. Heck, I've never been to the white house but I'm suddenly afraid I somehow have classified document in my possession. There EVERYWHERE LOL.  

Here's my question. Isn't there some sort of procedure in place so the powers-that-be KNOW who has classified documents and when, so they can get them back? I mean, at work we have sensitive docs. They are signed out and tracked. How does the US government have a harder time tracking classified documents than our library does tracking any given Nancy Drew Mystery book?
Maybe they were obtained electronically then printed? How about lock the printing ability? 

Cynical answer: the government is so ridiculously incompetent it's not even funny anymore.

More serious answer: classification is kind of a joke. From my understanding from people who have worked at the alphabet agencies, pretty much everything you do at work once you have a clearance is *technically* classified. Schedules, memos, lunch plans, angry emails to each other about the boss taking a 5th vacation in 6 weeks, a shopping list you made on your lunch break because you were at work, the bday announcement for coffee and cake in the break room for Bill's 500th birthday, etc. 

So then everything winds up "classified" which makes for good headlines, but really lacks any kind of context or nuance. Except citizens hear "classified" and immediately go to top level nuclear secrets and dirt on other countries.

It gets really really hard to keep tabs on all of that really really fast with the amount of leeches err employees the gov't has, so you have to use the honor system, to a point, and trust that people understand their training and will do the things they're supposed to do.

But people as a whole are stupid and lazy, and don't think before they act or realize what they're doing. 

Supposed to be lots of processes, but processes work only as well as the people using them.  Bureaucrats and elected officials are not really different from anybody else, so I'm sure they don't follow the rules...  There was just a thread here about people not using cad programs properly.

I suppose there's also a bunch of "Secret" documents that really don't have anything particularly secret on them.  If they have a list of names and addresses of all the agents in place in North Korea, that's probably a pretty big deal.  Other stuff may not be, so it would be pretty easy to get a bit cavalier about the likelihood of the French starting a trade war over truffles...

And it's not political, other than one party using it as a slam, because I'd bet a pretty long dollar you could find something where it wasn't supposed to be in 90% of the offices in washington.

RevRico said:

More serious answer: classification is kind of a joke. From my understanding from people who have worked at the alphabet agencies, pretty much everything you do at work once you have a clearance is *technically* classified. Schedules, memos, lunch plans, angry emails to each other about the boss taking a 5th vacation in 6 weeks, a shopping list you made on your lunch break because you were at work, etc. 

That makes a lot of sense. 

I've read before- I'd have to search for the source again- that during Obama and Biden's terms their presidency procured ~1.3 million classified documents, and much of the desire to expand funding for government organizations (like the IRS) is for modernization, not just more staffing. It'll be up to the DOJ (who are investigating) to determine if there was actual negligence, but there's a serious issue of "They produce too much damn paper" without even getting to the specific of "What the hell is it?". 

"Classified" is a general term that covers a lot of categories - Classified, Secret, Top Secret, Only for the Illuminati, etc. When I was in the military we had the lowest-level classified docs all over the dang place. On the ship a fax machine would literally spit them out all the time, and a lot of time they wouldn't even pertain to us (like being something in the Med when we're in the Pacific). It doesn't surprise me that a government that has more departments than it knows what to do with also makes more documents than it can handle.

It makes me more concerned about the electronic items that are confidential. One of my second professional jobs that was computer based, the IT department took the time to go over simple things to keep confidential items safe. Like locking your computer when you step away, do not put SSN or personal information in the subject line. Do not email confidential emails to your personal email.  I understand there are individuals that must have paper,  but the neglect doesn't stop at paper, if you read or watch the senate facebook hearing, clearly the high ranking members are not the only ones that are just ignorant and dumb.

All of this comes from having worked in a TS/SCI shop, and having handled SCI documents before.

The General/Senator/Congressman/VP/POTUS/Who-the-berkeley-ever-VIP-is-handling-classified-materials has a responsibility to know where it js while it is in their hands, once it is handed off it is a staff member's job to track it.  The VIP is too damn busy to deal with opening the safe, recording their name, tracking the document, putting the document back, locking the safe, as well as the dozens of other random things you have to do in the acquisition and disposition of classified materials. 

Their job: read classified material, act on classified material, don't drop classified material, don't leak classified material.  Thats it. 

Thats the long and short of the how it works with the most recent story in the news.  Problem isn't with VPOTUS at the time, but with their staff.  With the controlled materials officer, their staff, and potentially the folk that hired the C.M.O.

Where it differs from a very similar story in the news is that, by all accounts, that guy made a conscious decision to forgo handing the classified material back and treated it like his own personal property.

From what I had read, the agency in charge of keeping track of documents HAD been trying to collect them from a former President for two years now.

Strictly on inference, copies of said documents were possibly found on a radio personality's phone after its contents were leaked, so they were forced to take more serious action.  The timeline fits.

Javelin said:

"Classified" is a general term that covers a lot of categories - Classified, Secret, Top Secret, Only for the Illuminati, etc. When I was in the military we had the lowest-level classified docs all over the dang place. On the ship a fax machine would literally spit them out all the time, and a lot of time they wouldn't even pertain to us (like being something in the Med when we're in the Pacific). It doesn't surprise me that a government that has more departments than it knows what to do with also makes more documents than it can handle.

Ok, this is exactly what I assume is going on. Being that we're talking about the government, this makes perfect sense. 

America loses nuclear weapons so often they have a name for it.

This stuff is hardly a surprise.

Seems like a good opportunity for disconnected digital devices. VIPs could take the device, equipped with fingerprint reader, retina scanner, DNA scanner, 6 factor authentication, anywhere they want, but the things have a burn notice set for the end of their term. 

Mr_Asa said:

Thats the long and short of the how it works with the most recent story in the news.  Problem isn't with VPOTUS at the time, but with their staff.  With the controlled materials officer, their staff, and potentially the folk that hired the C.M.O.

Agreed, with one caveat. Ultimately, the VPOTUS or whover the executive is, is responsible for the actions of their staff. They hired the person that did the hiring, etc.

I guess this means that technically I have classified documents in my garage - I have an old code book marked "Top Secret" from when dad was in the Army reserves in the late-50's. Hopefully the FBI won't be stopping by to confiscate it anytime soon. 

DrBoost said:

Ok, serious question, and seriously not political, so don't make it political.  
I don't know how many, but a number of classified documents have been found in Biden's possession....

Oh lord.  Oh lord please.  

I definitely have some documents marked Classified Information in my house. 


Definitely some codes in there... for the NES... 

In reply to Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) :

That is the other curiosity, and the reason why they do it this way makes sense, but it is still a curiosity.

Let's say you have ten copies of Whatever, classified by three different TLAs.  All three TLAs have to declassify them individually, and each individual document has to be stamped.

The part that amuses me is that a document could have info so old that it is common knowledge, but it is still classified... because when people know something can be even more important than what they know.

DrBoost said:

Javelin said:

"Classified" is a general term that covers a lot of categories - Classified, Secret, Top Secret, Only for the Illuminati, etc. When I was in the military we had the lowest-level classified docs all over the dang place. On the ship a fax machine would literally spit them out all the time, and a lot of time they wouldn't even pertain to us (like being something in the Med when we're in the Pacific). It doesn't surprise me that a government that has more departments than it knows what to do with also makes more documents than it can handle.

Ok, this is exactly what I assume is going on. Being that we're talking about the government, this makes perfect sense. 

Oh also- there's a phrase with the alphabet boys, that "Nobody ever lost their job making something classified", which also explains a lot.

Streetwiseguy said:

Supposed to be lots of processes, but processes work only as well as the people using them.

I won't speak for any other Departments... or my own, but I have observed that documents, folders of documents, and boxes of folders of documents are routinely unaccounted for and an email will go out saying "if you have XYZ, please return it to the file room."  As has been said "Classified" really doesn't mean much, despite what the "News" wants us to believe about the other team.  It doesn't automatically mean the documents contain missile launch codes or the combination to the safe at Fort Knox.  Unless information is marked with a higher classification or is otherwise exempt from a FOIA, it is readily available to the public either in its entirety or in PPI-redacted form, where necessary.

One could say this is indicative of a prevailing belief that the rules apply to the governed, not the governing.

When you work in a world that deals with classified documents, there is never really any downside (to you) to not classify a document.  You always err on the side of caution.

And so does everyone else.

And next thing you know, lunch memos, that meme you sent your co worker, etc. are all classified.

There are way too many classified documents to manage.  There needs to be a system to renew classification otherwise it expires... or some other incentive not to classify every document that rolls across your desk.  The additional management of this crap costs the taxpayers billions I am sure.

I no longer have a clearance and tried to run from that world.  Through acquisitions and mergers I work for a company that is a DOD contractor again, and we have a similar internal system ("Technical Data").  Its such a royal pain in the ass, and its so convoluted its pretty hard to objectively analyze whether or not something needs to be marked as "tech data", so I'm sure just about everything is and I'm sure we spend $millions managing it.

Sign docs out like a library book. Paper and/ or electronic trail. 

Still dunno why I needed a secret clearance to operate steam boilers on a fed site but I did. Sounded cool though.

fasted58 said:

Sign docs out like a library book. Paper and/ or electronic trail. 

Still dunno why I needed a secret clearance to operate steam boilers on a fed site but I did. Sounded cool though.

Were they old Navy boilers by any chance? Seen them at some VA facilities and the maintenance guys wouldn't share the records etc. 

GIRTHQUAKE said:

DrBoost said:

Javelin said:

"Classified" is a general term that covers a lot of categories - Classified, Secret, Top Secret, Only for the Illuminati, etc. When I was in the military we had the lowest-level classified docs all over the dang place. On the ship a fax machine would literally spit them out all the time, and a lot of time they wouldn't even pertain to us (like being something in the Med when we're in the Pacific). It doesn't surprise me that a government that has more departments than it knows what to do with also makes more documents than it can handle.

Ok, this is exactly what I assume is going on. Being that we're talking about the government, this makes perfect sense. 

Oh also- there's a phrase with the alphabet boys, that "Nobody ever lost their job making something classified", which also explains a lot.

It absolutely explains a lot.

For my first job, I was in the tank (offices for uncleared people) for a few weeks waiting for a clearance.  There was a guy in there at the PhD level that had been waiting for several months, so they had him working on documents.  He had earlier in his life served on a Yugoslavian gunboat, so knew something about the Soviet Navy.  He pulled a bunch of unclassified sources together and wrote a paper.  After review, they promptly took his work away and classified it Top Secret.  He never saw that document again and never got clearances.  How did doing that protect the knowledge in his head?