carguy123 said:
EUREKA!!
A pair of overseas containers for the basement and then I have a strong enough structure to pour the concrete over it! The stairs down to it are built out of block and enter from one end.
Now to figure out how rustproof them
I really really wouldn't do that. Concrete is very heavy. If you were planning on using 2 8x20 shipping containers that's 16,000lbs of concrete and you haven't even got to the house yet. If they aren't side by side and have a span it's even worse. Concrete poured 4 inches thick, which is the minimum you want for anything structural weighs 4000lbs per 80sqft give or take. A house usually weighs 50ish tons too.
Supporting your whole house on shipping containers is a bad bad idea
STM317
UberDork
11/25/20 1:39 p.m.
I can't imagine concrete being any cheaper than just using traditional sound proofing methods on traditional wood framing.
Layering subfloor with some mass loaded vinyl in between would probably handle a whole bunch of your complaints. Some spray foam on the underside followed by some thick drywall and you'd be golden.
This channel is insane and has some inspiration:
Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :
I agree on the shipping container idea, that's a horrible idea. Concrete is really heavy, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be in a shipping container covered in concrete.
But you absolutely can pour concrete over a wood floor, it just has to have a barrier so it doesn't actually touch the wood. It's used in radiant heat floors a lot and it's very popular in colder climates. It does require the floor being beefed up because even lightweight concrete is heavy. It's basically thermal mass and not usually finished either. I'm not a fan of it myself
You and I are gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.
You are much more knowledgeable than me about concrete and concrete techniques. But I know wood, and building systems.
The issue isn't weight or rot. It's movement. Wood ALWAYS moves. Concrete does not. When they depend on each other for structural characteristics, bad things happen.
Yes there are cementitious products designed to be used in conjunction with wood. Levelers, topping products, etc. But there are not concrete (water+ aggregate+ Portland cement). They are polymers, and fibrous cementitious products designed to move with the wood, unlike concrete. They are chemically different.
There are also reinforced cementitious systems (like tile mud bases) which are often reinforced with wire lathe or other steel component. They are designed to distribute a load across multiple wood members and "float". Again, not actually concrete (though cementitious)
Pouring concrete on a wood structural system that moves is a bad idea.
Combining wood and concrete is a little like trying to weld aluminum to steel. Both great materials, but they don't play well together.
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:
Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :
I agree on the shipping container idea, that's a horrible idea. Concrete is really heavy, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be in a shipping container covered in concrete.
But you absolutely can pour concrete over a wood floor, it just has to have a barrier so it doesn't actually touch the wood. It's used in radiant heat floors a lot and it's very popular in colder climates. It does require the floor being beefed up because even lightweight concrete is heavy. It's basically thermal mass and not usually finished either. I'm not a fan of it myself
You and I are gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.
You are much more knowledgeable than me about concrete and concrete techniques. But I know wood, and building systems.
The issue isn't weight or rot. It's movement. Wood ALWAYS moves. Concrete does not. When they depend on each other for structural characteristics, bad things happen.
Yes there are cementitious products designed to be used in conjunction with wood. Levelers, topping products, etc. But there are not concrete (water+ aggregate+ Portland cement). They are polymers, and fibrous cementitious products designed to move with the wood, unlike concrete. They are chemically different.
There are also reinforced cementitious systems (like tile mud bases) which are often reinforced with wire lathe or other steel component. They are designed to distribute a load across multiple wood members and "float". Again, not actually concrete (though cementitious)
Pouring concrete on a wood structural system that moves is a bad idea.
I do happen to agree with you completely on the idea of concrete and wood. Although there are a massive number of poured concrete floor up here in the frozen tundra used for in floor radiant heat.
There is also a fair number of ICF homes around here who use the ledge form to hold floor trusses and there the separation between concrete and wood is no more complex than the separation used in any form of construction between walls and foundation.
In reply to frenchyd :
No stereotypes actual people in Florida is where I got my opinion. Maybe "your" people don't over winter in Fla
In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :
Who said I was going to totally support it on shipping containers? That gives me a much stronger base than just wood
If I find a way that works better I'm headed that direction. That's what this thread is all about, trying to find options and give me enough info to begin working on costs and feasibility. This is GRM don't ya know!!
In reply to carguy123 :
A shipping container is not a building material. There is nothing in the building code that would permit any form of this.
The ONLY way you could use shipping containers as a structural element for a building is to have an engineer's seal on the design.
And structural engineers are very conservative...
In reply to carguy123 :
As a mortgage broker, you should know how hard it would be for a lender to loan money on a structure that was not built to code...
In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :
Actually you and I aren't disagreeing, I'm not a fan for a lot of reasons, movement is one. Radiant heat floors are usually put in log homes here too, you wanna talk about movement? Semi green/wet logs move a ridiculous amount.
Some of the products you can use aren't a standard concrete too, that's true. There's gypson based stuff that some use which is...well......liquid drywall basically. Some do use basically a grout mud with limited aggregate. I've poured a lot, but only when I was working for someone else. It never really ends up great and I personally don't like it. It's expensive, kinda crap and annoying to do, so I turn those sorts of jobs down.
But it is possible, if you wanted it to be
carguy123 said:
In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :
Who said I was going to totally support it on shipping containers? That gives me a much stronger base than just wood
If I find a way that works better I'm headed that direction. That's what this thread is all about, trying to find options and give me enough info to begin working on costs and feasibility. This is GRM don't ya know!!
Actually it's probably not. Wood framed houses with concrete foundation are pretty damn strong overall. With ashipping container, among other things, you'd have to worry about rust inclusion, what steel it's made of and etc. Foundation repair is by far the most costly thing, I wouldn't even think about the idea if I was building on it. Single story stuff? I'd hold my nose and entertain it, but definitely not 2 story or more.
Want an off the beaten path idea? Block. A block house is just about as strong as anything you can imagine, especially if full grouted. Great insulation value, hurricane proof and even bullet proof. Hell, with lumber prices now it's probably even significantly cheaper even
In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :
Block is a common building element in Florida, but having lived in one I can say they seem to ooze moisture so sealing it for the long term could be an issue.
Since we are discussing concrete let me tell you a little trick I've done at least 3 times. On this last house I wanted a textured and wet stained floor. Since the concrete would be a focal point of the house I didn't want cracks to show as you get in most concrete foundations/floors in our area so I had them pour the first bit and smooth off the top. Then I laid down heavy duty rolled linoleum and poured another 2" of concrete with the fibers in it (I don't remember what it's called) that's supposed to minimize the small cracking of concrete.
The purpose of the vinyl was to give a smooth surface that would allow for minor shifting or cracking to happen without transferring all the way to the surface (in other words allow the bottom and top layers to move independently of each other. Keep in mind movement is very slight) and it's also a minor moisture barrier since the sealer for this type of floor is sensitive to moisture. It's 14 years later and all I have is some minor superficial surface "characteristic" type of cracks.
I first did this as an underlayment with some tile I was laying in my office when the tile had to cross over an expansion joint in the building. 5 years later MY tile was crack free, but the tile that was already there had a big crack running the length of the hallway following the joint. This led me to try it on some other projects with similar results.
In reply to carguy123 :
Using a bond breaker is a fairly normal thing when capping concrete. It's usually either plastic or sand.
While the end goal has been good, the bond breaker probably didn't help much. The concrete itself rarely moves, it's everything else around it. Fiber mesh helps in these situations but it was probably a well compacted subbase that helped more than anything. In fact, having a 2 inch pour on top actually weakened the surface. Did you use any other reinforcement?
Acid etch floors are great, I wish I could do them more but they've fallen out of favor up here.
carguy123 said:
In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :
Block is a common building element in Florida, but having lived in one I can say they seem to ooze moisture so sealing it for the long term could be an issue.
Concrete is hydroscopic so it'll drag moisture from everything. For basements the secret is the waterproofing on the outside and french drains to keep water away from the sponge basically
In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :
Nothing else,this was my normal poured pier & beam. All the concrete guys thought I was crazy.
In reply to carguy123 :
I would have said the same. It's a gamble that I wouldn't touch, but I'm glad it worked for you
