03Panther
03Panther Dork
12/16/20 10:25 p.m.

In reply to wae :

The only thing I know about Bell's Palsey, is a friend that had it...sadly, his did not work out that way. 'Course, his case made the medical texts, so I hope its not as bad for last folks. 

I don't watch TV, so I also don't know anything about the drug Curtis is talking about, or what some of the hand wringers are worried the most about. I think some folks might have a few legitiment worries, since no one really knows yet what the effects are going to be. 

I don't know what I'd decide if I had to make the choice right now. Fortunately, if covid ever becomes a big enough problem in my area/lifestyle, there will have been enough early users to know more. 

Subscriber-unavailabile
Subscriber-unavailabile HalfDork
12/17/20 6:23 a.m.

Stuff life this that bothers me, and I've seen this from multiple websites. Just want to damn real truth!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/denver.cbslocal.com/2020/12/15/grand-county-covid-deaths/amp/

chaparral
chaparral Dork
12/17/20 8:10 a.m.

Three people on my Facebook have posted about getting vaccinated - a nurse, a PA-C, and a hospital registrar- none have reported any side effects. 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/17/20 8:29 a.m.
03Panther said:

In reply to wae :

The only thing I know about Bell's Palsey, is a friend that had it...sadly, his did not work out that way. 'Course, his case made the medical texts, so I hope its not as bad for last folks. 

I don't watch TV, so I also don't know anything about the drug Curtis is talking about, or what some of the hand wringers are worried the most about. I think some folks might have a few legitiment worries, since no one really knows yet what the effects are going to be. 

I don't know what I'd decide if I had to make the choice right now. Fortunately, if covid ever becomes a big enough problem in my area/lifestyle, there will have been enough early users to know more. 

I think that choice of waiting to see how it goes is a choice that is automatically made for you by the availability of supply.  It might be May-July before a significant portion of the population even has access to it.

The drug I referenced was a fake made up name, as were the side effects.

wae
wae UberDork
12/17/20 8:38 a.m.

If something is on the news or if they bother to write an article about an event it is typically because that event is unusual.  You don't get "Brent Spence Bridge Carries Bunches of Cars and Trucks; No Problems Reported" every day.  You get "Truck Fire Closes Brent Spence Bridge for a Month".  If there were truck fires closing the bridge every day, it wouldn't be worth writing a new article about.  Same thing with most of the side effects for most of the drugs, probably including this one.  It's unusual that some of these things happen to people so it's worth writing an article about it.  It's almost always _A_ guy has an allergic reaction.  Or _A_ lady was bed-ridden for 24 hours with a fever and muscle aches.  So far, no article is claiming that all, a majority, most, or even many people are experiencing any significant side effects.  Which is pretty much what we should be expecting.

In other good news, it sounds like the 5-dose vials are shipping out with an extra dose or two in them, so there are a few more doses available than we initially thought.

wae
wae UberDork
12/17/20 8:41 a.m.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

The drug I referenced was a fake made up name, as were the side effects.

But the scary part is that it actually doesn't really sound made-up!  Some of those disclaimers that they rattle off are a bit... ominous!  Some of my personal favorites are the ads for the anti-depressants that have a side-effect of causing suicidal thoughts.  While I suppose that would technically cure the depression, I don't think I would classify it as "helpful".  And I love the ads that say that you shouldn't take Provasic if you are allergic to Provasic. 

Come to think of it, most of those sound just like the old SNL ad for Happy Fun Ball

mtn (Forum Supporter)
mtn (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/17/20 8:44 a.m.
Subscriber-unavailabile said:

Stuff life this that bothers me, and I've seen this from multiple websites. Just want to damn real truth!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/denver.cbslocal.com/2020/12/15/grand-county-covid-deaths/amp/

The truth is that we are reporting some deaths as Covid deaths that probably should not be, but we're probably underreporting them more than we're overreporting them. 

The other truth is that California, along with other areas (Akron, I'm sure others) are following El Paso, New York, and others and ordering Refrigerated Trucks to use as makeshift morgues and many areas are out of ICU beds or close to it. 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/17/20 8:49 a.m.
Subscriber-unavailabile said:

Stuff life this that bothers me, and I've seen this from multiple websites. Just want to damn real truth!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/denver.cbslocal.com/2020/12/15/grand-county-covid-deaths/amp/

One of the reasons you'll never get truth from the news is the people who are the subjects of that news.  The Coroner lists her reasons for not wanting deaths classified as C19 is because of tourism.  She is also wrong.  They are not listed as death due to covid, First, important distinction.  Colorado (and nearly every other state) follows the CDC's guidelines for reporting Covid cases.  Even if they didn't die FROM covid, they are required to report if someone HAD covid when they died.  It is important to know that tidbit as part of the reporting of CASES in addition to DEATHS.  From that link you sent, 

Colorado provides death data related to COVID-19 in two ways:

  • Deaths due to COVID-19:
    • This is based on CDC coding of death certificates where COVID-19 is listed as the cause of death or a significant condition contributing to death.
  • Deaths among COVID-19 cases:
    • This reflects people who died with COVID-19, but COVID-19 may not have been the cause of death listed on the death certificate.

In the reporters own words from the video:  "but because they had tested positive... they are listed as deaths among those cases."  No one... not even the coroner... said that they died of covid.  The issue she's bringing to light might be a perception issue, not a reporting issue.  This is the real issue behind my concern.  Those who are on the (I'll call it) the science-doubting side of things watch videos like this and say "SEE??? THEY'RE LYING ABOUT COVID."  I watch that video and get pissed because the way they present it is misleading, but I (since I have done the research and believe the science) recognize that clip as nothing more than face-value truth that was twisted by the coroner to suit her pro-tourism mindset and a news segment producer who saw the word "covid" and decided to run the story without caring for anything other than ratings. 

No one in that video said that the gunshot wounds were listed as "death from covid."  The coroner is basically saying that because the reporting is being misconstrued, people are misinterpreting things to fit their own beliefs.

A screencap from that video clearly shows that the county reported 5 deaths; 3 due to covid, and two covid CASES that died of gunshot wounds.  This isn't subterfuge, lies, or inflating numbers, it is people NOT LISTENING and using sound bites to bolster information they want to be true.

This is where we fail in America.  Media reports what gets viewers and ratings, and we lap it up without actually listening to it.  I did some research on those cases.  They are apparently reporting 100% accurately.  I agree with what is SAID in this report.  I am angered by how they twisted it to make it look like there is something wrong with it.

You want the truth?  It's all right there in the report you linked.  Listen to it again and use discernment.  The issue is not "they're reporting deaths that aren't from Covid," the issue is "to the general public, the report LOOKS LIKE they are reporting deaths that aren't from Covid."  No one in that video (except the coroner being worried about tourism) says that they inaccurately reported Covid deaths.  They are saying that the association with covid is hurting tourism because people are just taking what they want to hear.

Even the title of the article (which no one reads) says, "Grand County Coroner Raises Concern On Deaths Among COVID Cases."

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/17/20 8:52 a.m.
wae said:
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

The drug I referenced was a fake made up name, as were the side effects.

But the scary part is that it actually doesn't really sound made-up!  Some of those disclaimers that they rattle off are a bit... ominous!  Some of my personal favorites are the ads for the anti-depressants that have a side-effect of causing suicidal thoughts.  While I suppose that would technically cure the depression, I don't think I would classify it as "helpful".  And I love the ads that say that you shouldn't take Provasic if you are allergic to Provasic. 

Come to think of it, most of those sound just like the old SNL ad for Happy Fun Ball

I know right?

Me - "doc, I've been having suicidal thoughts"
Doc - "let's put you on an antidepressant which might give you suicidal thoughts."

03Panther
03Panther SuperDork
12/17/20 5:31 p.m.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:
03Panther said:

In reply to wae :

I don't know what I'd decide if I had to make the choice right now. Fortunately, if covid ever becomes a big enough problem in my area/lifestyle, there will have been enough early users to know more. 

I think that choice of waiting to see how it goes is a choice that is automatically made for you

That is why I said "if".  But at this point I assume you are rolling over my thoughts on the subject intentionally. 

You started out doing a good job of presenting information, opinion, and your conclusions in a calm polite manner. But it didn't take you long to start being snide and condescending to anyone that doesn't beg to get the vaccine immediately. I don't actually disagree with your assessment. I just don't need to be in any hurry, due to my choices. Moot point, since it wouldn't be available to me for a while, anyway, but if we take that view of it, 95% of what has been said here would be moot as well.

Subscriber-unavailabile
Subscriber-unavailabile HalfDork
12/17/20 6:59 p.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

From the various sites I've read none of them state they died from Covid. But because they tested positive in past 30 days it's required to list Covid 19 on their death certificates, therefore the people that got shot are now put into the statistics of Covid deaths. 
 

News keeps reporting Los Angles ICU is at 0%, but take a look http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/media/coronavirus/covid19_recovery_dashboard.htm

315 ICU beds available 

 

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/17/20 7:30 p.m.

In reply to Subscriber-unavailabile :

Not sure how to interpret that. 
 

1/2 hour later, that number is 288 ICU beds. That's 27 fewer than when you posted at 6:59. 
 

8.5% reduction in 31 minutes doesn't seem good. 

eastsideTim
eastsideTim PowerDork
12/17/20 7:46 p.m.
Subscriber-unavailabile said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

From the various sites I've read none of them state they died from Covid. But because they tested positive in past 30 days it's required to list Covid 19 on their death certificates, therefore the people that got shot are now put into the statistics of Covid deaths. 
 

News keeps reporting Los Angles ICU is at 0%, but take a look http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/media/coronavirus/covid19_recovery_dashboard.htm

315 ICU beds available 

 

The title over that data point is “Daily number of available adult ICU beds, past 3-day average”, so I would deduce that is based on the last three days averaged together.

AAZCD (Forum Supporter)
AAZCD (Forum Supporter) Dork
12/17/20 8:13 p.m.

My only complication with getting the vaccine is scheduling it. Aircrews are now approved to take it, but cannot be on duty for 48 hours afterward. The second dose of the Pfizer vaccine needs to be given 21 days after the first (+/- 2 days). Working 7 days on - 7 days off, I need to take it on my first day off, then again 19 days later. That gives me only two days available each month that I can schedule the first shot. If I can arrange to swap shifts, I can get in Monday. Otherwise Things may not align (Vaccine available on a day I can take it) for a few months.

Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude)
Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude) MegaDork
12/17/20 8:20 p.m.

Charleston VA had zero Covid patients yesterday. By noon today they had 9. By tomorrow, who knows. The number does fluctuate fairly rapidly. 

One of my guys spent a couple of hours working in a Covid ward today and he said it was fairly quiet. 

As a add, I was in for my annual poke and prod a couple of weeks ago. My doctor told me rather specifically to NOT go to the ER if I though I had Covid. That I needed to come see him and let him make the determination as to if hospitalization was necessary. He had some issues with how the hospitals were treating Covid cases and if I was admitted through the ER the controlling doctors would be hospital doctors. If admitted from his office, he and the doctors in his practice would have a voice in the treatments administered. 

An interesting note, his practice is owned by the hospital. 

All is not in agreement on the medical side of this. 

Subscriber-unavailabile
Subscriber-unavailabile HalfDork
12/17/20 8:36 p.m.

In reply to Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude) :

Sadly from my understanding doctors who are prescribing certain meds that are know to be beneficial  fighting this are being flagged and fought. Even pharmacies are told to block certain meds even though they've been around a long time and are safe.

I know a  few people that are in the medical world that are on same page as something more is going on.

chaparral
chaparral Dork
12/17/20 9:19 p.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

It does need to be ONE community rather than several - that way we know that it'll stop transmission in a metro area. I don't mind if it's not Kalamazoo.

KyAllroad (Jeremy) (Forum Supporter)
KyAllroad (Jeremy) (Forum Supporter) UltimaDork
12/18/20 10:27 a.m.

2.5 hours in and i have exactly zero side effects.  I usually feel a bit puny from the flu shot each year by now.

No cravings for brains just yet.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH MegaDork
12/18/20 3:10 p.m.
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter)
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
12/18/20 3:31 p.m.
GameboyRMH said:

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-12-18/wealthy-patients-scramble-covid-19-vaccine

Act surprised everyone.

Honestly, if some celeb wants to donate $25k to a hospital to jump ahead in line, I'm OK with that. That $25k can probably do a lot more good than a single vaccination can, anyhow. Greater good and all that.

The State I live in is stockpiling the vaccines, rather than distributing them. Highly questionable behavior.

Whatcha doin, TN?

AAZCD (Forum Supporter)
AAZCD (Forum Supporter) Dork
12/18/20 5:03 p.m.

I arranged and got confirmation to get shot on Monday. The FAA is requiring that I am off duty for the next 48 hours: https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=96258  

I'll do it as vacation time if I have to, but my employer has been pretty good about this stuff and I expect that I'll get normal pay for the two days I miss.

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Dork
12/18/20 5:19 p.m.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/18/20 6:42 p.m.
Subscriber-unavailabile said:

In reply to Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude) :

Sadly from my understanding doctors who are prescribing certain meds that are know to be beneficial  fighting this are being flagged and fought. Even pharmacies are told to block certain meds even though they've been around a long time and are safe.

I know a  few people that are in the medical world that are on same page as something more is going on.

Having been married to someone in the medical field, this is not uncommon in the least.  It happens daily with a few hundred thousand illnesses.  Doctors might prescribe a drug for something that they know will be effective even though the FDA, manufacturer, and the "rules" say that it isn't indicated.

It's the equivalent of what we normal people do every day.  Read the instructions for a Bic lighter.  No where does it say that Bic lighters are indicated for use as a bottle opener, and it probably says something like "do not use for anything other than lighting cigarettes."  So every time we use it to open a beer, or (god forbid) light a candle instead of a cigarette, we're breaking the rules.

First, a definition.  An indication is the ailment's suggested treatment.  Indicated describes the drug useful in treating the ailment.  For instance, Diabetes is an indication for Insulin.  Insulin is indicated for Diabetes.

The difference is between what's called "labeled indications" and "off-label indications."  For instance, a labeled indication might be prescribing Pseudoephedrine (Sudafed) to reduce mucous production in the sinuses when you have a cold.  That's why it was invented, that's what the manufacturer says it should be used for, and that is on of the official FDA-approved use of the drug.  An off-label indication would be to prescribe a decongestant like Sudafed as a diuretic since one of the things a typical decongestant does is to reduce the production of the hormone that tells your body to retain water (ADH).  In either case, the doctor has the freedom to prescribe whatever medication he/she sees fit.  The consternation and conflict comes from whether or not it makes scientific sense, and doctors are constantly under scrutiny for these choices. 

There are plenty of examples in which a drug has augmented its indicated scope.  A good example is Aspirin.  For 80 years, aspirin was used as a pain reliever.  Then after millions of doctors over decades of observation, it was noticed that it was also a blood thinner.  So, for many years, doctors prescribed it as a blood thinner and heart attack prevention as an off-label indication.  Finally, after about a decade, the FDA finally did the research, compiled the data, and changed the indications for using Aspirin to include vascular-related heart problems.

If you haven't watched it, the movie "Awakenings" is not only a brilliant movie, it is based on a true story, and perfectly depicts one of those times a doctor went WAY off-label and had some success.  In that case, it involved extensive research, a valid theory, and years of study and careful testing by a highly-respected and brilliant doctor.  Contrast that with (an example that is fresh in my memory) something like Hydroxychloroquine.  It is a medicine used to treat a parasite that a bankrupted casino owner haphazardly suggested on Twitter that we should try it for a virus.  Understandably, a few doctors tried it, because who wouldn't trust the medical advice of a bankrupted casino owner, right?  Obviously, millions of mainstream doctors went bat-E36 M3 crazy - the same way I might go crazy if an interior designer suggested that a good way to increase the performance of my Miata was to paint my living room purple.  Great choice for someone renovating their living room, but their effectiveness at offering automotive performance advice is not something I trust.

So, doctors understandably don't get criticized for being innovative and suggesting slightly off-label indications that are based in logical, tested, fact-based theory, but when they try to treat a virus with a drug that has known dangerous heart side-effects, used to treat a parasite, and has zero scientific data to suggest that it helps in viral infections, yes... they will be scrutinized and questioned.

 

Subscriber-unavailabile
Subscriber-unavailabile HalfDork
12/18/20 7:19 p.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Yea but look at hydroxychloroquine, been on market for 60+years, a drug that's been in the world market, even available as an OTC drug in many countries, has been shown to have great effects with this virus. But since Trump said it, it's getting blasted by media as a horrific drug. Even though it's drug a pregnant woman can take that is perfectly safe to take. I've heard numerous stories of people going to the primary physician, testing positive for Covid, and get asked what's they're political stance before DR recommends treatments.

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