Cracked: The Occupy Wallstreet Generation

[breaking open an old can of worms]

why I haz to haz degree to haz job? If I can do the job as well/better than guy who haz degree?

[open ended can...no end]

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Who owes you the job, exactly? The school? Or the job market? Why is the school to blame? Their job was to give you the tools necessary to prepare yourself for a job in your chosen profession. They did that. What do they owe you further?

The schooling system is designed, by its own virtues, to provide education that can be utilized in society (industry). Simple as that.

I don't know how it works in the US, but post secondary education institutions, provincial and federal governments, and industry work very closely to tailor the education available to what is needed here.

Can you still get that arts degree? Sure. But it will get you nowhere. You seem to think that all of the people making noise are ones that got worthless degrees; that is patently FALSE. Lots of people got degrees that should have been worth something but aren't.

You seem to be lost in righteous thought of responsibility, while I blame deception as the issue. These people have been duped. I wasn't, but I consider myself to be much more in tune with these things than most. The "system" is designed for you to be REQUIRED to go to post secondary to get a job. Surprisingly enough, there are only so many trades jobs, and those middle class jobs from the 60's, 70's, and 80's where someone was hired and worked their way up to become management when they are in their 50's is no longer a reality. Because of the requirement (REQUIREMENT, hence the need, not want, to go to school) for the jobs nowadays, there is responsibility on the shoulders of the institutions that make the rules (education, gov, and industry) to provide the necessary information to help you land a job. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I'm actually quite curious Celica, what is your experience with the post secondary education system and when?

3+ years. About 5 years ago. Dropped my first major when i realized i didn't want to do it. (Also: trying to pay off $40k of debt with a salary job requiring a degree starting at $30k would have taken forever.)

Dropped out when i realized the second major would have been useless.

I blame nobody but myself.

I agree in that there's lot of deception. The article makes some valid points.

However, that said...

The schooling system is STILL providing education that can be utilized. Is it THEIR fault that they're still offering degrees in fields that are not in high demand if they still have people clamoring for that degree?

Absolutely not.

Again, you're paying the school to be educated. Nothing more. They did their job if you got a degree. Everything else, up to and including researching if your proposed field is even a viable option, is up to nobody but yourself.

When did people start confusing a university education with vocational school?

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Absolutely not. Again, you're paying the school to be educated. Nothing more. They did their job if you got a degree. Everything else, up to and including researching if your proposed field is even a viable option, is up to nobody but yourself.

And I don't think we are in disagreement. Clearly though, even you initially fell for the same thing. That would lead me to believe its more of a problem of the system than a problem of the people. Even enginerds up here nowadays, they start at the same wage/salary as me, but spent 3 more years (and probably $50k more money) getting there. Eventually, if they are good, they'll earn more money than me in a decade. Should no one become engineers anymore? IMO, industry has fallen behind on what they want/require.

HiTempguy wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Absolutely not. Again, you're paying the school to be educated. Nothing more. They did their job if you got a degree. Everything else, up to and including researching if your proposed field is even a viable option, is up to nobody but yourself.

And I don't think we are in disagreement. Clearly though, even you initially fell for the same thing. That would lead me to believe its more of a problem of the system than a problem of the people. Even enginerds up here nowadays, they start at the same wage/salary as me, but spent 3 more years (and probably $50k more money) getting there. Eventually, if they are good, they'll earn more money than me in a decade. Should no one become engineers anymore? IMO, industry has fallen behind on what they want/require.

No, i didn't really fall for anything. My second major was kindof a "just 'cuz" deal.

It just took me 3 years to realize i didn't have any interest in my main major as a profession.

Live and learn, my fault.

I went to college because thats just what you do after high school. and bumbled around for a year and a half not really sure what I wanted to do with my life before dropping out, and landing an entry level drafting job based on my 3 years of drafting experience from high school.

So that was 9 years ago, Ive since done 2 years of night school just for the sake of getting an associates degree in drafting and design, still not sure that was even worth it but I guess I have the piece of paper that says I did it.

Ive also been attending an apprenticeship program for my field for almost 5 years, and am nearly ready to sit for my exams to become a licensed surveyor in my state.

So yea, I could have done all of this without college. In fact I could have had my license already. No one tells you that when you are in high school. Kids are just expected to go. And at the time, I didnt have any better ideas. I didnt know.

I thought this whole protest was against Wall Street pushing their derivative losses off on the taxpayers.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/11/11/bloomberg_articlesLUIEMS1A74E9.DTL

The flip side: My parents (more accurately, mother) expected me to go to university. At the time, I wanted to take advantage of some of the things I learned tinkering on cars. University = Engineer. I went, and almost died the first year...and came very, very close to going to college/vocational school to become a technologist or mechanic. In the end, I overcame (thanks to friends and family), school got better as the applications became clearer. I ended school with $20k debt due to financial mismanagement - it would have been possible to end with at least 1/2 that.

I work next to someone who didn't go through school, but became a mechanical designer through a connection. He's very, very hard working, smart, professional et al. He is stuck - NO ONE will hire him on experience alone, they all want to see (at the very least) a diploma or preferably a degree.

failboat wrote: So yea, I could have done all of this without college. In fact I could have had my license already. No one tells you that when you are in high school. Kids are just expected to go. And at the time, I didnt have any better ideas. I didnt know.

Again, this was touched on in Shop Class As Soul Craft; children are not all the same....why do we tell them all the same thing about planning their futures?

So then its a question of the value of the utility of the degree. Why must a degree with less utility (in this case, utility is he ability of the degree to improve your employment/income over the lack of the degree) now carry a cost considerably more than it was less than a decade ago? Its not inflation...its greed. Tell everyone they MUST go to college, change the status quo to reflect a newly indoctrinated baseline, and then jack the rate to the moon.

So, again, why is a degree that no longer carries the utility it once did, now cost what 4 degrees cost 10 years ago? I think theres a little of the "blame wallstreet" rationale...

njansenv wrote: ...they all want to see (at the very least) a diploma or preferably a degree.

"they" are ghey

4cylndrfury wrote: So, again, why is a degree that no longer carries the utility it once did, now cost what 4 degrees cost 10 years ago? I think theres a little of the "blame wallstreet" rationale...

Education costs have skyrocketed in direct correlation with collaborations between government and "education street". Sallie Mae offers federally guaranteed loans with a "value" well over $150B. Institutions cashed-in because their potential customer base dramatically expanded and said institutions wanted that money.

Greed isn't a vice exclusive to Wall Street.

I will say yes there are cheaper college and universities that you can go to (mostly state schools) but the cost of those is rising massively. Partly due to the states failing to fund the schools and partly because of greed as mentioned above.

I chose to go to an institution that was cheaper and offered me a full tuition scholarship. So I left with $7k in debt ($1k of that is for my car after I crashed my old one) and I was able to find a job so paying that off won't be hard. I was in the right place at the right time to score my current job after applying to over 100 engineering jobs in the South East.

Datsun1500 wrote: Can someone show me the job posting that says degree required from private college?

Nope, sure cant, but I can show you the tuition bill for my classes 10 years ago, and what the cost would be to complete the degree I never finished if I were to go back today. My local state funded University has tuition rates nearly triple what they used to be per hour. I understand what you are saying about it being possible to complete a degree, and not come out upside down owing a luxury car - I agree, it is possible. But it shouldnt be so unlikely...why should it cost so much to begin with - even at a state or local level? Can you just agree with me that universities got greedy once student loans became so easy to get? Can you agree with me that is why so many people feel that theyve been duped?

oldsaw wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote: So, again, why is a degree that no longer carries the utility it once did, now cost what 4 degrees cost 10 years ago? I think theres a little of the "blame wallstreet" rationale...

Education costs have skyrocketed in direct correlation with collaborations between government and "education street". Sallie Mae offers federally guaranteed loans with a "value" well over $150B. Institutions cashed-in because their potential customer base dramatically expanded and said institutions wanted that money. Greed isn't a vice exclusive to Wall Street.

Fair enough...I may have minced words a bit...Greed is not exclusive to wallstreet, but it is most certainly a mainstay of the powers that be...the reach there is far broader than that of wallstreet - wall street was just the group that was occupied first.

Are they? Or are they performing "due diligence" to ensure that the candidate they hire has "appropriate" credentials. That's the way "they" see it. You can bitch about the game, play their game, or start playing your own game (self employment). Note that I'm talking about engineering, which I'd argue ties with nursing as the most practical of degrees.

4cylndrfury wrote:

njansenv wrote: ...they all want to see (at the very least) a diploma or preferably a degree.

"they" are ghey

Vanderbilt wouldn't be charging $60K per year if they weren't getting that money. Supply and demand is basic economics.

Easy-to-obtain student loans make college more expensive. Why? Because they increase the amount of available money to pay for tuition, which thus drives up the cost further. Supply. And. Demand.

So part of the solution is to stop giving all these kids these student loans.

njansenv wrote: Or are they performing "due diligence" to ensure that the candidate they hire has "appropriate" credentials.

There are places a degree is a good thing to check for. But I think it often gets used as a convenient filter, or as a CYA measure for HR, since they can then offload the verification of competence to the degree-issuing entity.

I dunno. I think it's a pretty bad scene that we've gotten to the point where conventional wisdom says you just go get a degree unless you absolutely can't, and that can turn out to be a terrible move. Kudos to those who've successfully bucked the trend and made it work for them.

But...

There's still a lot to suggest you should get a degree, depending on what your concerns are. People with degrees statistically make way more money (as long as they're working).

I kinda wonder whether this is a somewhat different facet of the middle-class squeeze: Yes, a degree can often facilitate a "cushy" (after several years I'm not convinced; I get paid a lot better now, but I found it a lot easier to relax when I worked at a warehouse or a taqueria) office job with a better salary. One problem is, the entire population can't be middle managers and engineers. There are a limited number of those jobs. As more people try to get degrees and get those jobs, is increased tuition just a reaction to demand in the education market?

Sky_Render wrote: Easy-to-obtain student loans make college more expensive. Why? Because they increase the amount of available money to pay for tuition, which thus drives up the cost further. Supply. And. Demand.

Supply and demand only applies when either is limited...theres virtually unlimited supply, since a college can hand out as many worthless pieces of paper they want. Demand is unlimited since a degree is now the status quo.

Sky_Render wrote: So part of the solution is to stop giving all these kids these student loans.

I agree...loan sharkingis loan sharking...be it toxic mortgages or ridiculous tuition...if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

4cylndrfury wrote: I agree...loan sharkingis loan sharking...be it toxic mortgages or ridiculous tuition...if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

Payday loan businesses and car title loan businesses are popping up on every street corner where I live. My mailbox is filled with credit card offers and mortgage refinance offers. I even get letters offering me private student loans after taking a community college course in auto shop. And at the shop class, the tool guys are all over the students borrow up to 20K to buy a professional set of tools for the high paying tech jobs they will get when they graduate.

Loan sharking is the seems to be the only business that is expanding in this country right now.

My dear departed Gram once got really upset because of all of the interest free for 700 months financing that the local furniture place kept advertising. My Dad looked at her and said "Nobody around this table is stupid enough to fall for that, so what's the problem?" He meant it in a nice way, we were all brought up smart enough to not fall for crap. I have never lost money to a Nigerian scammer either, if I had, does my ISP owe me money? I chose my degrees carefully, took a manageable amount of debt and here I am, living through that exact plan, more or less. Of course I feel bad for someone who was led to believe their underwater women studies degree would lead on to a flourishing salary from some sort of feminist activism, but I don't think it's my fault, and certainly it isn't their college's fault for offering a bullE36 M3 degree, or charging for it. It probably cost them the same to offer that degree as it does to offer an engineering degree. If someone wants to take the courses, why not offer them? It's almost like... gasp... responsibility!

Sky_Render wrote: Vanderbilt wouldn't be charging $60K per year if they weren't getting that money. Supply and demand is basic economics. Easy-to-obtain student loans make college more expensive. Why? Because they increase the amount of available money to pay for tuition, which thus drives up the cost further. Supply. And. Demand. So part of the solution is to stop giving all these kids these student loans.

Bingo. You insulate the consumer from the price paid, and the price inevitably rises. Works with healthcare, works with tuition, etc.

In reply to tuna55:
fine, you did a good job managing your education debt...well done. Heres your cookie.

How long ago was that? Im talking today, right now, if I wanted to go back, my tuition rate has jumped by several times inflation, basically, because the university knows I can get loans to cover it, not because thats what a degree is worth. In general, tuition has raised, not to cover costs, or some unforeseen decline in supply, but simply becuase...well... they can.

Please answer the question: Why has tuition become so high if its worth has dropped so low? If a MAJORITY of students will never work in the field in which they have been educated, whats the benefit of that education? Whats the benefit of incurring the cost? I understand that, like a business, you need start up capital to undertake your endevor. Im not trying to take away from that. But no one would ever start a company if it was going to be 25 years before you got out from under your startup loan. Same thing here...whats the point? he education does little or nothing to increase my knowledge with regards to my profession...so I should just take the hit in the wallet because it makes it easier for HR people to segregate? Seriously?