If your degree name is not the name of a job, don't expect your degree to get you a job. Engineering - good. French Literature - bad.
There are engineers but no French literaturists.
If your degree name is not the name of a job, don't expect your degree to get you a job. Engineering - good. French Literature - bad.
There are engineers but no French literaturists.
Datsun1500 wrote: Then don't go,
Seriously? thats not an option in todays America
Datsun1500 wrote: find a different school...
If the local state college is raping my pocketbook, and Im in state, I think Im doing just that...theres no way Im going to a private college or ivy league...Im talking Local U.
Datsun1500 wrote: learn a trade, whatever. You have a choice....
This is a route Im looking at...Im just at a crossroads where I have to decide and soon...I earned half a degree before I stopped going for medical reasons. Now, Im looking at a significant amount of debt to go back, or toss $10k worth of schooling in the crapper to go learn to fit pipes...Im not opposed to a trade position, I think Id actually enjoy it...but can I justify losing out on the college Ive already got? I need to do a bit of soul searching...
4cylndrfury wrote: In reply to tuna55: fine, you did a good job managing your education debt...well done. Heres your cookie.
YUM!
4cylndrfury wrote: How long ago was that? Im talking today, right now
Ready for this? Get in the way-back machine. I graduated in...... 2005.
4cylndrfury wrote: ...university knows I can get loans to cover it, not because thats what a degree is worth. In general, tuition has raised, not to cover costs, or some unforeseen decline in supply, but simply becuase...well... they can.
So, like every other product in the entire world!? I know, it sucks, school has gotten dramatically more expensive, excessive student loans, higher expectations of hiring companies, federal assistance, mom&dad telling you that you have to, so what?
4cylndrfury wrote: Please answer the question: Why has tuition become so high if its worth has dropped so low?
If it is, as you have suggested, "impossible" to get a real job without one, I would argue that it has gained worth. A lot of worth, actually. The market decides that, not me. If I were hiring people, I certainly would not place a high regard on higher education compared to some places. With nearly 20% (real) unemployment, though, things are bound to be seriously competitive.
Otto Maddox wrote: If your degree name is not the name of a job, don't expect your degree to get you a job. Engineering - good. French Literature - bad. There are engineers but no French literaturists.
You and I have had our share of disagreements here, but that is a brilliantly simple statement. Nicely put.
4cylndrfury wrote: How long ago was that? Im talking today, right now, if I wanted to go back, my tuition rate has jumped by several times inflation, basically, because the university knows I can get loans to cover it, not because thats what a degree is worth. In general, tuition has raised, not to cover costs, or some unforeseen decline in supply, but simply becuase...well... they can.
I graduated from engineering school in August and only am $7k in debt. It can be done.
DILYSI Dave wrote:Otto Maddox wrote: If your degree name is not the name of a job, don't expect your degree to get you a job. Engineering - good. French Literature - bad. There are engineers but no French literaturists.You and I have had our share of disagreements here, but that is a brilliantly simple statement. Nicely put.
Agreed!
tuna55 wrote: My Dad looked at her and said "Nobody around this table is stupid enough to fall for that, so what's the problem?" He meant it in a nice way, we were all brought up smart enough to not fall for crap.
And it's not a problem as long as a vast majority of us don't fall for Nigerian scams, useless degrees, and store acorns for the Winter. But when when a lot of people make those mistakes, we are not insulated from the turmoil. And the current combination of conventional wisdom leads a lot of people to believe that that have to get a degree, and that any degree is better than no degree. And depending on your local job market, those may not even be wrong, but we can sure see it's not universal. (I fairly recently spent four years working at a marketing firm. Virtually all of my coworkers had degrees. I'd be surprised if a third of them were directly related to their jobs)
When an individual makes a bad call, it is often entirely their own fault. But when a huge number of otherwise reasonable people are making the same mistake, it behooves us to figure out what to do about it, even if each of those individual decisions is the decision-maker's fault. Accurately placing the blame doesn't change the unemployment rate.
Do we need PSAs recruiting for garbage collection or warehouse work? Do we need a Summer blockbuster with a cabinetmaker hero? Can we do that without funding from a for-profit school?
poopshovel wrote: Honestly, I don't think a high school education did me a ton of good. I played music and got laid a lot. That was nice.
That all really depends on the High School you went to and what you put into your own education. My school was great. We had the ability to take wood shop, metal shop, auto shop, ROTC, and even the old school home ec. I did three years of drafting and engineering and learned the latest AutoCAD, built prototypes on lathes and mills, and even got to use a CNC machine. And I went to the ghetto school. Or maybe that's the ticket?
Anyways, point is they taught some really good life skills that could be turned into vocations. How many people have any idea how to assemble an IKEA dresser let alone make their own from wood? Honestly I think our Counselors had a lot to do with it. They asked us our Senior year what we actually wanted to be when we left HS. Some people put college down and got tours of those schools. Firefighters went to the station, etc, etc. I wrote down "Racecar Driver" and they hooked me up with a VP at NASCAR and sent me to Daytona Speedway for a day for a personal tour and talking. I'll never forget that day.
I can't get over the number of people who expect things from the rest of the world.
OK, so you went to school and racked up a $100K in debit. So what. That earns you precisely what you got. An education and a piece of paper that says you're educated. The world owes you exactly squat for that. Just because your degree was worth $100K to you doesn't mean it's worth that to anyone else. Get over it.
Universities are expensive because no one has balked at paying what they are asking. Don't have the money for school, just borrow it. Don't figure out how to afford it, don't worry about paying it back, don't change to a cheaper local school, just borrow it. That's the dumbest thing I have ever heard. But people are lining up to do just that. The rates won't come down until the supply is greater than the demand and the demand isn't going to change until the loan money dries up. That's not going to happen, because now the government is backing the loans and the taxpayers will always be there to bail them out. Presto, free college for all. Just wait, it'll happen.
You think your degree has a hard time getting you a job now. Wait till everyone has one. Then it will be worth what a HS diploma was 20 years ago.
4cylndrfury wrote: In reply to tuna55: fine, you did a good job managing your education debt...well done. Heres your cookie. How long ago was that? Im talking today, right now, if I wanted to go back, my tuition rate has jumped by several times inflation, basically, because the university knows I can get loans to cover it, not because thats what a degree is worth. In general, tuition has raised, not to cover costs, or some unforeseen decline in supply, but simply becuase...well... they can. Please answer the question: Why has tuition become so high if its worth has dropped so low? If a MAJORITY of students will never work in the field in which they have been educated, whats the benefit of that education? Whats the benefit of incurring the cost? I understand that, like a business, you need start up capital to undertake your endevor. Im not trying to take away from that. But no one would ever start a company if it was going to be 25 years before you got out from under your startup loan. Same thing here...whats the point? he education does little or nothing to increase my knowledge with regards to my profession...so I should just take the hit in the wallet because it makes it easier for HR people to segregate? Seriously?
Did you miss the part where I said MY 2 kids both graduated LAST YEAR (as in 5 months ago- the last graduating cycle) with minimal debt? I paid NOTHING. They made choices, and worked their behinds off. His education was worth $50K, he has $20K in debt. Her education was worth $170K, she has $10K in debt.
Neither one of them had the slightest expectation of their school providing a job for them.
He has taken a job in an unrelated field, and she will be going on to Grad school.
Whining won't change anything. Work will.
And the answer to your "Why" question is "Because they can".
Schools charge a lot of money because they can. They will continue to do so as long as there are people willing to pay it. It's not the school's fault, it's the consumer's.
If the free market is willing to buy all the widgets I can produced for $500 each, why in the world should I sell them for $100 each? That would be stupid. Education systems are not stupid.
No one has to have an expensive education. It does not limit success.
Datsun1500 wrote:ransom wrote: But when when a *lot* of people make those mistakes, we are not insulated from the turmoil.A lot of people will buy a car with a horrible reputation, this does not mean I have to and/or it is my problem when it breaks.
That misses my metaphor on a few key points:
In reply to ransom:
But they still need to be responsible for the choices they make. It's called growing up. Everyone on this board has made poor decisions in their life and lived with the results of those decisions. I don't expect anything different from occupy crowd.
My 20yo daughter figured out how to get her $120K private school education with no debit. She's two years into it and still on plan. If she hadn't, she would be at a local school getting a $16K education and still ended up with no debit.
Toyman01 wrote: In reply to ransom: But they still need to be responsible for the choices they make. It's called growing up. Everyone on this board has made poor decisions in their life and lived with the results of those decisions. I don't expect anything different from occupy crowd. My 20yo daughter figured out how to get her $120K private school education with no debit. She's two years into it and still on plan. If she hadn't, she would be at a local school getting a $16K education and still ended up with no debit.
This. Be responsible for your actions.
My kid is 14, she wants to be a vet and is already working on how to pay for it. We had a couple of long talks about the financial situation and how what she does now will most definitely affect how easily she can get grants, scholarships etc and she is keeping her shoulder to the wheel. She is already aware she may graduate with some debts unless there's a bloody miracle. 
She did the Salkehatchie housing program http://www.salkehatchie.org/home/ last summer and she got two different letters from colleges which track that kind of thing, so she's now very aware of how important that is.
Having said all that, I'm not convinced that a $150K education in some major which only equips a person to deliver pizza is a good idea.
ransom wrote: At some point, the fact that they're not getting where they need to go causes problems for the rest of us, and saying it's their fault for buying the wrong car doesn't change the fact that my doctor missed our appointment and the pizza I ordered is two hours late.
Or the government bails out the E36 M3ty car company when it goes bankrupt, using everyone's money... cause that never happened.
I guess I clearly do not understand people who oppose my line of thinking and then just scream entitlement, which may be because of the societies we've grown up in.
I'm really curious as to how your daughter SVreX or Toyman paid for $100k worth of school by themselves. If they lived with you, then that is a savings of about $10k/year give or take. But still, there is literally no way I could have ever personally earned that much money even if I put all of it away since 16. If you say scholarships, well then this conversation is over as those are given to a select few (which in your opinions, I guess they'd deserve and the rest of us should go work trades etc as we clearly haven't "worked" hard enough to get where they are).
tuna55 wrote:4cylndrfury wrote: How long ago was that? Im talking today, right nowReady for this? Get in the way-back machine. I graduated in...... 2005.
I graduated high school in 2005. Over the course of my 4 year degree, tuition at my school increased 20%.
Sorry bro, 2005 is not 2011.
In reply to Toyman01:
I'm not suggesting we wave a magic wand, dismiss all their mistakes and send them on their way. Yes, people have to live with their decisions. The issue is that when the numbers are large we also have to live with their decisions. I think we need some sort of fix that works on the before-that-decision-is-made phase of the problem...
What I'm pointing out is that we have a problem, and it's done a lousy job of fixing itself. And it seems possible that crossing our arms and looking disdainfully at them will not correct the issues that may impact us. I'm just pointing out that if a huge portion of the population keeps making this mistake, it's going to make things worse for everybody, even if they all quietly suck it up and work off their school debts in a warehouse. Well, it works out fine for the folks who own the debt, but not as much for anybody hoping to sell them anything else...
I'm woefully short of a plan about what we should do (hence my grasping at "how do we make practical decision making more popular" ideas). My parents all but made me go to school (it's actually worked out well for me, at least in the numbers), but among the questions is how did we get this giant disjoint between conventional wisdom and what actually works?
I'm also not just talking about the occupy crowd. There are an awful lot of people with school debt and no jobs who haven't been near an occupy event.
Congratulations to you and your daughter. Is there anything about how she's done that which could be done by the vast majority of students? If she's working her way through school and making that work, she's already making about the median U.S. income with no degree. If she's doing it on grants based on her studies, she deserves massive kudos for her brains and hard work, but by definition that can't work for a majority of people even if they all worked as hard and were as smart.
BTW, I feel like I should reiterate the congratulations. That may have sounded like I said it just as an opener for the follow-on questions, but that's a heck of an achievement and the congratulations are sincere.
In reply to Datsun1500:
The issue isn't deciding who to be mad at.
The issue is that I am hungry two hours after ordering a pizza. If that happens once, I call a different pizza company next time. But if 40% of the world's pizza delivery drivers have fallen for this same bad car, it doesn't matter who I call, or who I get mad at. That's the part where it becomes everybody's problem when enough people make the wrong decision.
You know what will correct the problem? Let people that made poor choices live with those consequences. This workd two fold. They will not make those same poor choices, and they will warn everyone else that is considering those same poor choices. Will it suck for a little bit? Yep. Sure will. But that is what making mistakes does... it sucks. Deal with it.
Personall, I am sick and tired of this crap. I busted my ass, worked 45+ hours a week while in college, taking 15 credit hours as a music major, still putting my butt in dept. I realized it was not going to work for me, got out, and had to pay off my debts. It sucked. There was no one there to bail me out. No one offering me a hand out. Suck it up, pay for your E36 M3 and get over yourself.
I don't think a lot of people realize how expensive education has gotten even at a public university. I can't speak for every state but the two I have experience with (Alabama and Kentucky) have cut the funding of college education in the recent years. Guess what that leads to increases in tuition. Also a lot of colleges are forcing freshmen and sophomores to live on campus and pay their stupid overpriced housing rates. I agree those people who decided to go to private institutions and got degrees which pretty much mean you will never be able to find a job are berkeleying idiots. But there are lots of people who have got berkeleyed by the cost of education rising over the recent years even going to a public college, working and majoring in a degree which will probably have a job (engineering, teaching, etc).
Maroon92 wrote:tuna55 wrote:I graduated high school in 2005. Over the course of my 4 year degree, tuition at my school increased 20%. Sorry bro, 2005 is not 2011.4cylndrfury wrote: How long ago was that? Im talking today, right nowReady for this? Get in the way-back machine. I graduated in...... 2005.
This.
So.... who here purchases a car without knowing how they are going to, or even IF they are going to pay for it? Go to the grocery store, put $500 of food on the cnveyor belt and not know if or when you can pay it off? How about your electric bill? Do you run every light on in the house, set the thermostat at 90 and then not know how you're going to pay your bill next month?
College is the same thing. You need to know how you plan to pay for it long before you start going. If not, DON'T GO. Not everyone needs a damn college degree. In fact, I was smart enough to leave before I was buried in debt, and I make MORE than my friend who graduated.
HiTempguy wrote: I'm really curious as to how your daughter SVreX or Toyman paid for $100k worth of school by themselves. If they lived with you, then that is a savings of about $10k/year give or take. But still, there is literally no way I could have ever personally earned that much money even if I put all of it away since 16. If you say scholarships, well then this conversation is over as those are given to a select few (which in your opinions, I guess they'd deserve and the rest of us should go work trades etc as we clearly haven't "worked" hard enough to get where they are).
I already stated that it was in part scholarships, but your assertion that scholarships are somehow for an elite few is patently false.
Earning scholarships is hard work. Making applications, writing essays, knocking on doors, selling yourself, and proving yourself HARD for 4 years straight.
But the fact is that it is work that ANYONE can do if they choose. The other fact is that there are significant amounts of scholarship money that go UNUSED because nobody tries. How many scholarship applications have you made? How many did the average student you know make? My daughter made over 100. I can remember several tearful phone calls from her about how much work it was.
Then there is my son. He's not as driven as his sister. He got NO scholarships. He chose a less expensive school, and bought and sold electronics on EBay for the entire 4 years he was there to pay for it. Also incurred more debt then she did, but probably had just as little sleep.
Driven people can solve problems. There are multiple solutions to most problems. Crying and blaming others for what they owe you is generally NOT a solution.
Maroon92 wrote:tuna55 wrote:I graduated high school in 2005. Over the course of my 4 year degree, tuition at my school increased 20%. Sorry bro, 2005 is not 2011.4cylndrfury wrote: How long ago was that? Im talking today, right nowReady for this? Get in the way-back machine. I graduated in...... 2005.
But 2011 IS 2011. See the above posts about my kids.
SVreX wrote: Driven people can solve problems. There are multiple solutions to most problems. Crying and blaming others for what they owe you is generally NOT a solution.
This needed to be highlighted, bolded and pointed out. Apparently some just don't "get it".
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