Degree knowledge without a degree?

Practical, applied knowledge absolutely has its own value.   Once apon a time a young 11GTCS was employed as a Propulsion Systems Engineer by the Electric Boat Division of General Dynamics.  My degree as a marine engineer was a natural fit for the job and I ended up working in a construction support group with a grad of the same school I attended as my supervisor.  

I had written an engineering disposition for some shipyard issue and was sitting with my boss to review it.  He read it and asked “did you go down and look at this?”  Uh, no.  Why?

Sigh from the boss and a pause.  “Listen, you need to get off your berkeleying ass and go down and talk to so and so in the machinists department.  He’s forgotten more about building subs than you’ll likely ever learn.  Take notes, he’ll let you know how this needs to be fixed.”   Gulp...Yes sir Mr. Pina, on my way....

I learned a lot that day that still applies over 30 years later.  I did talk with the machinists, many, many times. We ended up getting along great and I learned a lot.   My willingness to work with them,  put the time in down in the yard and answer the calls in the middle of the night, etc. probably had a lot to do with some pretty cool assignments later on.  One of those was 6 days underway on sea trials of the USS Pittsburgh.   That experience rates only slightly below marrying my wife and being present for the births of our children BTW.   So yeah, respect the guys with the hands on knowledge as they’ve earned their chops in the school of experience.   Also, thanks George Pina MMA ‘63, you shaped me more than you could possibly know.  Oh and yes sir, it’s not the same berkeleying school...  

My employer (uncle sam) has no problem giving me the job title "General Engineer" despite not having a PE or having sat the FE. 

Mr_Asa said:

Other than what has been said already, being a Mech E is about learning to guess really well.

You have to learn how materials are strong and weak in order to guess how best they will fail.

You have to learn what the best structure is in order to guess how to design a structure that won't fail.

And because all of these things always have an exception or two, you have to learn how to guess what an appropriate factor of safety is.

You never really know how something is going to fail, so you do your best to think it through.  You can look at failures afterwards and determine what caused it, but almost every single one of those was vetted by someone who didn't think it was going to fail. 

I don't know if you're an engineer, but if you are, you must be working at some rinky-dink place if you are "guessing" at the strength of materials and the design. 

Aside from being able to calculate the strength of the design based on the materials used, many places also use FEA.

And to back up Ranger50, my original degree plan was a BS in Mechanical Engineering Technology at Oklahoma State. jharry3, I can assure you the STEM programs at Oklahoma State are nationally accredited. 

In reply to stroker :

not a book list, but a concept list:

lesson 1: learn to draw an effective sketch. doesn't have to be pretty, doesn't have to be to scale. has to show key dimensions.

lesson 2: learn to use that sketch as a Free Body Diagram, which is nothing more than a sketch of a thing floating in space, with arrows representing how forces are applied to that thing and how those forces are reacted (resisted) by the attachments of that thing to other things

lesson 3: learn how to look E36 M3 up.  there are tables for everything.

lesson 4: learn to read requirement documents and specifications.

lesson 5: consider the environment that thing has to live in, and for how long it has to live there, as this will drive material selections, dimensions, coatings, service schedules, etc.  a wheel bearing hub on an F1 car =/= a wheel bearing hub on the contractor-spec F150. a lot of that will be covered by requirements and specifications, but sometimes you'll have to create these requirements and specifications yourself.

lesson 6: learn how to design a proper test. this includes what to measure, how to measure it, where to measure it, how frequently to measure it, and how to interpret the results.

there's a ton more, but i can say for sure, with 30 years of work experience since earning my BSME, that the Free Body Diagram concept is the one thing i use the most.

stroker said:

... to acquire the skills and knowledge of a Mechanical Engineer without actually attending classes?  Something online, perhaps?

It is definitely possible, but do you need/want all of it? Or are there a couple areas you are mainly interested in? It is a really broad field and takes 4 years (or 5 for some of us) as full time students to slog through it. I can`t imagine how long it would take part-time without the help of other students and faculty.

My advice would be to start with a small area that you are really interested in and learn all about that and then move on to the next. It will be hard to get started because almost all of it depends on a good grounding in math, physics, and logic..

So if you want to learn about chassis design, start with the basics (math, physics) and learn what you need to about statics, materials, stress analysis, FEA, and joining techniques. If you want to know about engine design learn kinematics, thermodynamics, heat transfer, materials, machine design, CAD, FEA, CFD, and fluid dynamics.

What will probably happen is that you will find some of these areas fascinating, and some boring at best. Go ahead and dig into the fascinating ones in as much depth as you want. Learning should be fun!

You don`t say if you are looking into this for fun or for employment. It is possible to be employed as an engineer with only experience, but it will be very difficult to find an employer willing to chance it when there are degreed engineers available. 

How to get started? Look at a university course list and corresponding text books. Take online courses. If you let us know specific areas of interest I am sure you will get a lot of good responses. 

In reply to z31maniac :

Hyperbole, I has it.  Most engineers don't like it.  If I'm talking to a layperson I'll use it.

Even still, FEA is only so good, that's why you test things after they are made in order to verify your design, the FEA simulations, and your manufacturing processes.  Hell, I've sent off things for testing and found out that their strength was 70% of what the simulation said it should be.  The machinist used dull cutting tools and left surface imperfections that weren't visible until we dye tested other items from that lot of items.

Sounds like I'm going to be spending a lot of time using 3D modeling software.  I'm not prepared to buy a package at this point but I did find the following freeware options.  Any suggestions on which to try first?

Sparkydog said:

I'm a degreed Mechanical Engineer - but I interpreted the OP's question as if he wanted to acquire the knowledge not become a professionally licensed ME. I agree with others that if you want the knowledge then find the course list and/or book list for the courses and just start reading the books. That will get you 75% of the knowledge. You'd probably want to augment this with some interaction with profs or practicing ME's just to gain applied knowledge and resolve any questions you might have on a tricky aspect of the skills.

I've never been one of those people who look down on a coworker if they don't have a formal degree. If you know your E36 M3 you know your E36 M3.

this is how I see stroker's question, too.  Is this accurate?  

There are some basic classes that I would do my best to understand the ideas as bases.  For ME's that's Statics and Dynamics.  One is the study of stuff that doesnt move (aka sum of all forces = 0) and then the study of stuff that does move (sum of the forces = something).   The reason I would start with those, pretty much every single thing is based off the math from those classes.  And by math- the ideas of what Angry says about free body diagrams.

Fluid dynamics, mechanical dynamics, civil engineering, everything is based on the same math- it's just applied in slightly different ways.  Thermodynamics does slightly different things, but the math is still similar.  

Which then means you need to take a class in differential equations and engineering calculus.  As those maths are what connects the rather simple maths and models of statics and dynamics to all of the various other ME fields- maths and models.

So since you are not interested in the degree but are in the knowledge- then you are looking to apply the info in a specific way.  As much as "college boy" and the hard math is E36 M3 on. knowing HOW it works and applies is REALLY important.  You may never, ever use that math or models for your entire carreer, but knowing what it all means is super important.  I've been an engineer (not a PE) for almost 30 years, and have honestly not had to do the hard math.  Plenty of people I work with do, some in massive ways (developing more complex models of flow and combustion).  So the need of the specific skills ranges a lot- but knowing how the math and models apply is required.

This is clearly a personal thing, as professionally, few will ever get all of the promotions and responsibilities without a degree.  At Ford, there's an upper promotion limit w/o a degree, just like there's a filter if you don't have one.  Just a fact of the job market.

An engineering technology degree is not the same as an engineering degree.

Just compare the requirements to get a PE for each degree.

The guys I know with the Technology degrees have way more hurtles to jump to get a PE license than those with an engineering degree.

And, for the record, I think Oregon was being extraordinarily authoritarian to say a person with a stop watch could not time stoplights and publish the data.

I do think the court should have stopped there and not degraded the title of engineer.

I am a degreed engineer and passed the fundamentals exam. 
 

Over the years, I have worked with some great non degreed engineers. They were typically technicians that worked their way into an engineering roll over a period of time. They had good careers. Some of them probably hit a promotion ceiling.
Of course, most decent companies will pay for education that is beneficial to the company so they may have self limited themselves by not taking advantage of those opportunities. I know of at least one that did go back to school and complete a degree. 

I also know of at least a handful of machinists that finished a couple of years of engineering school and quit. They were making good money and enjoyed hands on work. 
 

The main thing to keep in mind is that you always have to be learning: new systems, new software, new machines, new problems...  whether that is in degree, certification, or self paced form makes no difference. If you like learning and research   then engineering  is definitely something to pursue.

In reply to stroker :

I would recommend that you start with a project. Preferably a real project, and start following the trail.

Lets say that you just got hired and I asked you to make me a brake pad. You, just like my new-hire, probably don't have a clue cause you have never done the task. But the answer is to follow the process.

Design requirements specifications will define the playing field. ( read up on those) They pretty much tell you what you need to build to what standard.

Load analysis.

Materials properties

Thermodynamic principles

3D Modeling

Regulatory

Documentation standards

Blah blah blah.....

You will go off on a hunt in several directions to figure out the minutia of the assigned task. The advantage that the engineering hire will have is that he has the vocabulary to understand the text as he combs through looking for answers. You on the other hand might have to take detours through a physics, math and thermodynamics text on your own and gain some base knowledge before you can proceed. If you can complete the process to design this one simple ( not really) item, you will have developed a toolbox that is expandable to almost any other item using the same process; "Learning how to figure E36 M3 out".

Mr_Asa said:

In reply to z31maniac :

Hyperbole, I has it.  Most engineers don't like it.  If I'm talking to a layperson I'll use it.

Even still, FEA is only so good, that's why you test things after they are made in order to verify your design, the FEA simulations, and your manufacturing processes.  Hell, I've sent off things for testing and found out that their strength was 70% of what the simulation said it should be.  The machinist used dull cutting tools and left surface imperfections that weren't visible until we dye tested other items from that lot of items.

You're 100% right. 

Even just the UNDERSTANDING that your answer isn't and will never be exact is an important part of engineering. Knowing how precise you have to be is important.

So yes, engineers guess. Even if they don't work for dinky dink outfits.

stroker said:

Sounds like I'm going to be spending a lot of time using 3D modeling software.  I'm not prepared to buy a package at this point but I did find the following freeware options.  Any suggestions on which to try first?

I've been in the industry for ~18 years now (E36 M3, I'm old now), and none of those have ever come up.  For mechanical engineering, most companies use:  Catia, NX, Solid Works, Solid Edge, Pro-E, etc.  Solid Edge student version is free last time I checked.  If you can't do one of those, I would use Fusion 360 (free for hobby use and business <$100k)

If you are going to learn one, make sure its a parametric modeler.

I have a Mechanical Engineering degree and school was relatively easy for me.  I think Thermodynamics, Dynamic Systems, Fluids, Heat Transfer, etc. would've been pretty hard to pick up just by reading the books with no peers or professor to engage with.

The question of 'how will my employer see this?' or 'will I hit a career ceiling' are obviously different.  Some employers only care if you can do the job, and some (esp. defense/govt/aerospace) absolutely require a degree even if you are only do the most basic engineering related thing.

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

Even just the UNDERSTANDING that your answer isn't and will never be exact is an important part of engineering. Knowing how precise you have to be is important.

So yes, engineers guess. Even if they don't work for dinky dink outfits.

It's all just good guesses.  There is no place today, at least in automotive, where there's enough time to get all the requisite data to make 'safe, data driven' decisions. If you waited until you had all the data you really needed to make the best decision on how to proceed you'd miss every milestone.  And FEA is just a tool, no different from a torque wrench.  That FEA said it would be good, and so it must be so without question, is as dangerous as assuming that because a torque wrench was used the fasteners must be torqued properly, without question.  No one would believe the latter, but many believe the former, probably because of the pretty colors.

To the OP, the degree is for the money/title.  Lots of places will happily let you do ME work for tech pay as long as a signature isn't required.  Actually nowadays alot of technicians do work that would have been considered engineering work previously.  For example, in a big company an 'engineer' might just fill out some paperwork for a test request, and then the 'technician' is the one that actually figures out how to hold the stuff to be tested, gets into the nitty gritty of the requirement/specs/parameters, figures out how the stuff to be tested really works, etc.  There's huge overlap.

In reply to grpb :

Good point here.  When I went to school I thought I'd be designing stuff.  I thought I'd be taking things apart, figuring out how they worked, then putting them back together so that they'd run better.

Know what I was actually doing?  Paperwork.  So much time spent writing reports, building excel spreadsheets, tracking deadlines, and babysitting our suppliers.  I was working for a DOD contractor, to be fair, but still most of what I was doing was verifying that everything was as it was supposed to be.  The site visits and live testing was fun, though

Pretty much the engineers conundrum...  We get all the knowledge to do amazing stuff and we get pushed into managing paper, people, and projects. I maybe get my hands dirty 3-4 times a year. The rest is all driving a computer or meetings and presentations.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

jharry3 said:

To even call yourself an engineer in the course of selling services is as illegal as a person calling themselves doctor, lawyer, accountant, if they are not licensed.

A federal court recently threw that out:

https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-light-timing-lawsuit/

 

JHarry3 is still correct. The Board cant stop random people (degreed or otherwise) who call themselves engineers, but they can stop people soliciting services as engineers.  The gentleman from the article was not selling his services so he should be able to still identify himself as an engineer.

-RossD  P.E.

stroker said:

I know I'll tip over before I finish, but I'm curious if anyone knows of a reading list and series of tests that would enable someone to acquire the skills and knowledge of a Mechanical Engineer without actually attending classes?  Something online, perhaps?

I'm reading "Reinventing Yourself" by James Altucher and it's got me wondering...  The book is terrific, FWIW.  

At its core, engineering is about understanding how things work in enough detail to be able to predict their performance. To predict performance very close to reality generally takes a lot of math and knowledge of a wide variety of subjects. To understand how something works in general terms usually requires little or no math.

For example, once you  know the important parameters for suspension design, you can design a suspension to have decent handling characteristics by modeling it using cardboard a-arms with thumb tacks for pivots, . However, to make it strong, light, cheap, and durable, requires an in-depth understanding of materials, stress analysis, lubrication, vibration, loading, manufacturing, kinematics, etc. and various mathmatical techniques for evaluating them very precisely. The quality of results you need determines the amount of math and knowledge required. Usually, the factor of safety can be adjusted to accomodate the accuracy of the design and manufacturing processes, if the accuracy is known.

Since this is GRM, I am listing some automotive related design & theory books (as opposed to strictly mechanical engineering) that people interested in cars and engineering topics may find interesting:

Some very good (but possibly out of print) books with minimal math:
    Any books by Colin Campbell (Design of Racing Sports Cars, The Sports Car, The Sports Car Engine, etc.)
    Any books by Carroll Smith (Engineer to Win, Tune to Win, etc.)
    Automotive Handbook - published by Bosch
    The Design and Tuning of Competition Engines - Philip H. Smith (definitely out of print long ago)
    Turbochargers Theory, Installation, Maintenance, and Repair - Todd Curless
    
Other books with more math (but you can generally skip over the math to get a broad understanding if you like):
    Fundamentals of Vehicle Dynamics - Thomas Gillespie (one of my favorite books ever)
    Scientific Design of Exhaust & Intake Systems - Phillip H. Smith and John C. Morrison
    Design of Machine Elements - M.F. Spotts

RossD said:

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

jharry3 said:

To even call yourself an engineer in the course of selling services is as illegal as a person calling themselves doctor, lawyer, accountant, if they are not licensed.

A federal court recently threw that out:

https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-light-timing-lawsuit/

 

JHarry3 is still correct. The Board cant stop random people (degreed or otherwise) who call themselves engineers, but they can stop people soliciting services as engineers.  The gentleman from the article was not selling his services so he should be able to still identify himself as an engineer.

-RossD  P.E.

This varys state by state, but you can certainly sell engineering services without holding a P.E. License.  There are entire companies that do this.  What you can't do is certify something as or sell your services as a "Professional Engineer".  But you can can be paid as an engineer making you a (lowercase) professional engineer.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, Civil Engineering seems to be where being a P.E. has value (sign off required for structural drawings), but in many other industries, being a P.E. has no value at all.  I work with literally thousands of engineers and I only know of 1 with a P.E. license (I'm sure there are more) and it does nothing for him in this industry.  

All of that said, if you are an engineer and want the cliff's notes of all of your college textbooks crammed into one, get the FE Review Manual - I believe this https://www.amazon.com/Review-Manual-Preparation-Fundamentals-Engineering/dp/1591263336/ref=pd_lpo_14_img_0/139-7252886-1901265?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1591263336&pd_rd_r=424c5e18-7051-4618-a6d1-e9a8daa07bab&pd_rd_w=lEuqx&pd_rd_wg=BOwat&pf_rd_p=7b36d496-f366-4631-94d3-61b87b52511b&pf_rd_r=CCA6QAC08YYSGCD4J763&psc=1&refRID=CCA6QAC08YYSGCD4J763 (mine is a different rev/cover but I think it is the same book)

Someones probably already mentioned it, but get a copy of Machinery's Handbook. It is the go to reference for tooling, inspection, tolerances, etc... It has near every equation and table that you might need for basic mechanical design. 
 

jharry3 said:

I do think the court should have stopped there and not degraded the title of engineer.

Somebody calling themselves exactly what they are degrades nothing.

Driven5 said:

jharry3 said:

I do think the court should have stopped there and not degraded the title of engineer.

Somebody calling themselves exactly what they are degrades nothing.

Am I degrading nursing, by just calling myself a RN? What I can't do is claim RN BSN or MSN. But I can claim TNCC, CEN, PCEN, et al, as I advance my skill set. 
Point being, I can still call myself an "engineer " as long as I don't claim something I'm not. Meaning as long as my business card says AAS MET, pound sand.

Even with my "weakened" engineering tech degree, I spot plenty of stupid bs failures, even in the SFI chassis books that are then interpreted by many knuckledraggers who shouldn't be glueing metal together...

Being an expert in your interests/field trumps having all that engineering knowledge, IMO.

Somewhere an engineer is designing dumpsters and trash compactors. Let's say he's been doing that for 20 years.

He would be a fish out of water if suddenly got a job designing plastic injection molds. 

He would need years of experience to be really good at it.

My timing stinks. I *just* disposed of most of my undergrad engineering text books. 

The thing about mechanical engineering is that it's pretty broad.  Understanding what avenue/application may help. IE: structural mechanics (statics, mechanics of materials, machine design) vs fluids/heat transfer/thermodynamics vs system dynamics (vibrations, linear systems, dynamic systems).

For what it's worth, there are whole career paths in each of those.  I'm a design engineer and I got the most mileage out of my statics, basic mechanics of materials, machine design and entry level physics coursework.