M030
Reader
11/9/09 8:59 p.m.
Here's the short story...
Two and a half years ago I had a malignant brain tumor removed. I was really lucky in that it was very borderline and mostly benign (only 4% was found to be cancerous).
After the biopsy, the doctors agreed that it was most likely caused by prolonged toxic chemical exposure and that I should stay out of the garage. I bought a respirator, but the good doctor says even that's not enough.
So, I work outside! It's getting colder out, and while I love to get my projects done in the winter time when they're parked anyway, I hate the cold.
Anybody have any inspired ideas as to how to handle the "don't breath any fumes" mandate? Can anyone think of any reason why I shouldn't weld?
cxhb
Reader
11/9/09 9:16 p.m.
hold your breath? no seriously though, if the doctor says you shouldnt... maybe you shouldnt. Thats a tough situation. I cant imagine being told i cant do what i love to do. But then again i also cant imagine being struck with the news that i have a brain tumor... Either way, I hope you remain healthy.
2nd opinion, otherwise one hell of a heater....
How old are you? Maybe it's just your time to die, and you should tell mister smarty-pants doctor to harden the berkeley up!
I mean that with 100% sarcasm and 0% seriousness. Don't die yet. Not enough people with Porsche suspension references in their screen names.
Woody
SuperDork
11/9/09 9:22 p.m.
What were you exposed to? We all have brief exposures to various things in the garage. Did you spend an extended period of time using one or two specific chemicals?
M030
Reader
11/9/09 9:33 p.m.
aussiesmg wrote:
2nd opinion
I got a second, third and fourth opinion on this one. The #1 neurosurgeon in the country told me this, and they all agreed with him.
Anyway, I'm 31, so I'm hoping it's not my time yet. I mean that with 0% sarcasm ;)
The only thing I can think of that I was consistantly exposed to is old gasoline. More than once, I cleaned out an old gas tank from a car that was sitting for years and years...with my bare hands and no respirator. Apparently that's really bad for you.
But lots of guys work in the garage likes it's an addiction (probably is). That's what confuses me. Anyway, I'm glad it was mostly malignant. I was freaked out enough by a precancerous mole on my arm a couple months ago. I'll send some prayers your way.
Consider moving the worst chemicals out of the garage, and configure an exhaust fan draft hood. Live as long as you want to, and want to as long as you live. What would make you happier than puttering about in the garage ?
M030
Reader
11/9/09 9:45 p.m.
JeepinMatt wrote:
But lots of guys work in the garage likes it's an addiction (probably is). That's what confuses me... I'll send some prayers your way.
Thank you.
It is an addiction! I just have to find a reasonable way to adapt.
It confuses me too. I don't drink or smoke, I've never done ANY drugs and I excercise regularly. I like to work with my hands, but I know guys 70+ years old who work with their hands and who have breathed much worse stuff and for much longer - and they're fine. I think that maybe the older generations were just somehow genetically tougher.
I know working with stuff indoors is 1000 times worse than that same amount outside (fact check that one) When I was changing brake pads, I wore asbestos-proof filters in a half-face respirator and changed clothes when I went inside. Opening up a gas tank would release a hell of a lot of gas vapor into the air, especially indoors. I like to open up the garage door when it's warm, but I'd like to get a heated garage for the winter. If I'm going to be boxed up with all that stuff floating around, it's got me sort of concerned. At least they open up the huge doors at the shop I work at. I wonder what's floating off of all those 50-90 year old cars that occupy that place.
I too had a lesion excised from my noggin. In my case it was found incidentally through my interest in racing skateboards and was a relatively uncommon and extremely slow developing type. I reside close to Johns Hopkins where I had it removed by the boss, and I follow up with delightful Perfusion MRIs 3x year for life at NIH. If you ever need or want to talk craniotomies, drop a PM. Mine was all grade 2 and I'm perfect going on 4 years, but you know how it is.
Anyway.
Why'd I get this thing, I ask myself. Could it be about 40 years of Safety Kleen, lacquer thinner, nitrate and butyrate model airplane dope, plastics, composites, welding, brazing, washing parts in trichloroethylene, MEK, cyclohexanone, the crazy stuff the lab robots I designed shuttled about....
Since the event I've definitely been a much more frequent user of an organic vapor cartridge filter mask and nitrile gloves. I spray outside. I use fans.
Ultimately, and this is on the basis of a lot of discussion with the chief of neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins and the head of the neuro-oncology branch of the National Cancer Institute at NIH, your most common brain lesions, astrocytomas and oligodendrogliomas, have root a root cause based on genetics more than anything else. The only compound I've heard that's assured to give you the brain cancer is good old PVC.
Still, pays to be careful. Respirators are cheap. I like 3M and write the install date on the filters.
Is the Doc saying to stop with car stuff altogether? Or just indoors? If it came to death, I think I could take a break from the project in the winter if it could guarantee that I'll be around in the summer.
M030 wrote:
aussiesmg wrote:
2nd opinion
I got a second, third and fourth opinion on this one. The #1 neurosurgeon in the country told me this, and they all agreed with him.
Anyway, I'm 31, so I'm hoping it's not my time yet. I mean that with 0% sarcasm ;)
The only thing I can think of that I was consistantly exposed to is old gasoline. More than once, I cleaned out an old gas tank from a car that was sitting for years and years...with my bare hands and no respirator. Apparently that's really bad for you.
I used to wash grease off my hands in old gasoline. I don't think I even knew you should wear gloves and a mask until I was in my 20s. I'm 42. You are freakin' me out man.
It's really pretty simple.....ignore the doctors, continue welding, etc., and risk your health and well being, or give up doing some of your own work and live out whatever time you have somewhat healthy. Do you feel lucky ?
As far as welding goes, how do you suppose all that gunk inside your hood got there? Just think what it does to your insides! Whether genetic or environmental, it sounds like you've got a sensitivity to stuff. Me, I'd listen to the Dr.
Masks will keep out larger particulates, dust etc.; the only thing to keep out something as fine as a fume is a self contained respirator. Think SCUBA.
Maybe Johann has an extra suit.....
http://hellboy.wikia.com/wiki/Johann_Kraus
Ian F
HalfDork
11/10/09 7:40 a.m.
I can think of a few options... First, a full-on fresh-air respirator system; second, a point-of-use fume extraction system; third full 100% outside air HVAC system with hood exhaus in the work area (or some combination there of).
The first option is not cheap, but not terribly so and readily available from any automotive paint supplier (Eastwood.com and thetoolwarehouse.net for example).
The second is a bit trickier since we're dealing with flammable vapors, so the system will need to be Class 1, Div 1 rated. But now your sucking out the air, so you have to replace it... and heat it... which leads us to...
Air-changes per hour. You need more fresh air than is typically done in a residential garage during the Winter (which is usually sealed up as well as possible to keep cold air OUT). The problem is you basically need a 100% outside air heating system with a 100% exhaust. For a residential garage: expensive to install, VERY expensive to operate. The energy efficient get-around is to use a air-air heat exchanger/heat recovery system. A bit more expensive to install, but will save money in operation.
(my current job involved MEP engineering for pharma labs and production facilites, which are often 100% OA systems for much of the same safety concerns - many raw drug compounds are extremely dangerous).
The real eye opener will be cost. The system I described above is not something you're going to get any residential HVAC contractor to install. Or even a light commercial one. Pretty much industrial type equipment and installation. Plus, you'll need to get someone to engineer it (I can describe what you need, but in the same way a lawyer can't offer legal advice for free over the internet, I can't really design the system for you). None of this will be cheap. Not even close. But, if working on your cars is a "quality of life" issue, maybe explain this to your Dr and dig a bit deeper for more realistic options. I would see if the first option would be adequate as that will have the most realistic purchase and operating costs.
Radiant heat garage slab, and an open garage door and a good fan?
It'll still be cool, and you'll be heating the outside, but it might work.
What about those paint booth mask setups?
Probably a good pair of electric socks, and long johns might go a long way in keeping you warm.
Mental
SuperDork
11/10/09 8:39 a.m.
Maybe some good time with an excell spreadsheet. Plan you project well in advance, so all the nasty stuff can be done outdoors in the pretty months, and indoors is saved for benign, no chemical kinda stuff.
Get specific answers from the Doc. Make long lists of all of the chemicals you are likely to deal with and pick his brain. In my experience doctors give broad answers because most people misinterpret specific ones. Make it clear that you will follow ALL rules that make sense and NONE that are a byproduct of generalizations and mental laziness. Research research research! Somebody somewhere has researched every chemical out there and has put all of the info online so you can read it. My slightly educated guess is that working outside with good gloves and downwind of one of those 4' tall fans is fine for most chemicals, but then again the consequences of being wrong are rather severe.
HOLY CRAP !! You lucky bugger; NEW garage written off as a medical expense !!
I wonder if we can get Blue Cross and Aflac to pay for it?
The garage my car is in reeks of gasoline, like every other garage I've ever been in. Does this mean I shouldn't work in there with the door closed?
From a toxicological perspective, your doctors group answer is absurd.
Sometimes docs let their personal prejudices get in the way. Case in point: a bud's son had a detached retina in his eye caused by being hit in the head with a soccer ball, it was tacked back with laser surgery. After that was done, there was a discussion about what could and could not be done. Soccer = OK. Dirt bikes = Not OK, 'too much vibration'.
IMHO the best course of action is good ventilation.