driver's in spring (rant warning)

It's nice to see you have such a high regard for human life there Toyman01. Have you thought about the probability that the cyclist did not enterpret your honk as "Hey dude, I'm just being friendly and letting you know I'm back here and I'm getting ready to pass you", but rather sounded like "Hey, get the berkeley out of my way"? Then, to reinforce his mis-interpretation you blow his ass off the road like so many other inconsiderate drivers that think they own the road?

What you did could be considered assult and could easily kill someone because you got your panties all in a knot and couldn't wait until an appropriate place to pass. Do you regularly do this when you get stuck behind a school bus too?

Driving is a privledge, not a right. Cyclists are legally allowed to use up to half of the lane. You are required to pass them safely and follow the same rules for passing that you would use for any other vehicle, such as not passing on a double yellow. The only one in the wrong in the situation you described is you. Flame suit aside, you look like an idiot.

Yep, what I figured.

If he didn't know the difference between a courtesy honk and a GTFOMW, sorry about that.

Passing zone, Yep. I studied the same rule book you did.

Legal pass, Yep. See above.

If he had stayed on the edge of the road, he would have been 4+ feet from the edge of my trailer and had no problem. But since the DA decided to try to keep me behind him and pulled over toward the center of the road I probably cleared him be 1-2 feet. He got what he deserved.

Maybe you missed the point of the whole post. Car drivers are not going to watch out for bikers. Never have never will. If they hit a biker even when the biker is in the right, they might go to jail, but the biker might be dead. It isn't a fun fact, but it is a fact. Therefor it is the bikers responsibility to ride defensively. Assume every car is out to kill you. If you try to force your right of way on a bike, you will lose.

I ride my bike only in my neighborhood or on bike paths. Even then I know cars aren't going to see me and ride accordingly. Riding on a main road is like playing Russian Roulette with someone else loading the gun.

EastCoastMojo wrote: Cyclists are legally allowed to use up to half of the lane.

I just wish they'd quit using the middle half of the lane.

I think Toyman is trying to tell us about the popular nautical rule, which is the Law of Gross Tonnage. He who is heaviest ALWAYS has the right of way. A 1000+ foot supertanker will not yield to your 14 foot dinghy.

P71 wrote: I think Toyman is trying to tell us about the popular nautical rule, which is the Law of Gross Tonnage. He who is heaviest ALWAYS has the right of way. A 1000+ foot supertanker will not yield to your 14 foot dinghy.

Yeah, just ask the guy who was fishing in the channel of the ICW here in town. Brand new boat, first outing. Got run over by a tug pushing 15+ barges. Tug driver blew the horn, but the boater couldn't get the anchor up and the engine running in time. Tug was running with the tide and could not stop. Boater had to pay damages to the tug. Bent the shaft and wheel(prop) when it ground his boat between the bottom and the tug.

Toyman01 wrote: Maybe you missed the point of the whole post. Car drivers are not going to watch out for bikers. Never have never will. If they hit a biker even when the biker is in the right, they might go to jail, but the biker might be dead. It isn't a fun fact, but it is a fact. Therefor it is the bikers responsibility to ride defensively. Assume every car is out to kill you. If you try to force your right of way on a bike, you will lose.

Too bad your point was hidden in the middle of a post about how you intentionally did something that you knew could very likely injure someone, because they were inconveniencing you. So, you gave the cyclist what they "deserved".

And apparently passed them more aggressively than you would have a slow driver. If they were in a car, you would have had to go all the way into the other lane. If you only gave them 2', then you were still about halfway in your lane. Even towing a trailer, it should have been fairly easy for you to accelerate around him and make a quick pass. You didn't pass them closely because that was your only option, you passed them closely because you wanted to.

Sure, what the cyclist did was foolish. Cyclists should operate under the assumption that they are invisible and drivers will be too stupid to notice them. But what you did was actively malicious. Cyclists shouldn't have to contend with people trying to injure them. I don't get to push people over because they're talking on their cell phone in line at the coffee shop.

Salanis wrote: Too bad your point was hidden in the middle of a post about how you intentionally did something that you knew could very likely injure someone, because they were inconveniencing you. So, you gave the cyclist what they "deserved". And apparently passed them more aggressively than you would have a slow driver. If they were in a car, you would have had to go all the way into the other lane. If you only gave them 2', then you were still about halfway in your lane. Even towing a trailer, it should have been fairly easy for you to accelerate around him and make a quick pass. You didn't pass them closely because that was your only option, you passed them closely because you wanted to. Sure, what the cyclist did was foolish. Cyclists should operate under the assumption that they are invisible and drivers will be too stupid to notice them. But what you did was actively malicious. Cyclists shouldn't have to contend with people trying to injure them. I don't get to push people over because they're talking on their cell phone in line at the coffee shop.

I tell you what, you ever see me in line at your coffee shop on the phone holding you up, you can bust my chops and I will smile and apologize for mucking up your coffee experience.

If that man had been driving a car in front of you at 5-10 mph, you would have been outraged that some Jerk was driving like and idiot. But since he was on a bike, he now has a RIGHT to ride like an idiot. So that makes its my fault that he almost committed suicide by E150. Yeah that makes perfect sense. What ever. I made a concerted effort to give him plenty of room for a safe pass, just as I would if he had been a car. After that he is on his own, just as if he was in a car.

Anyone who wants to take their life in their hands by riding a bike on a high speed road, go right ahead. Lucky for me by brain doesn't shut off when I climb on a bike. Hell, my kids are smarter than that.

Toyman01 wrote:

P71 wrote: I think Toyman is trying to tell us about the popular nautical rule, which is the Law of Gross Tonnage. He who is heaviest ALWAYS has the right of way. A 1000+ foot supertanker will not yield to your 14 foot dinghy.

Yeah, just ask the guy who was fishing in the channel of the ICW here in town. Brand new boat, first outing. Got run over by a tug pushing 15+ barges. Tug driver blew the horn, but the boater couldn't get the anchor up and the engine running in time. Tug was running with the tide and could not stop. Boater had to pay damages to the tug. Bent the shaft and wheel(prop) when it ground his boat between the bottom and the tug.

That's why you don't anchor and fish in shipping channels. The Coast Guard releases Rules of the Road for a reason. It's called momentum.

Toyman01 wrote: I tell you what, you ever see me in line at your coffee shop on the phone holding you up, you can bust my chops and I will smile and apologize for mucking up your coffee experience. If that man had been driving a car in front of you at 5-10 mph, you would have been outraged that some Jerk was driving like and idiot. But since he was on a bike, he now has a RIGHT to ride like an idiot. So that makes its my fault that he almost committed suicide by E150. Yeah that makes perfect sense. What ever. I made a concerted effort to give him plenty of room for a safe pass, just as I would if he had been a car. After that he is on his own, just as if he was in a car. Anyone who wants to take their life in their hands by riding a bike on a high speed road, go right ahead. Lucky for me by brain doesn't shut off when I climb on a bike. Hell, my kids are smarter than that.

When people are inconsiderate on the road it does not matter if they are in a car or not, it does not give you the right to take it out on them. You chose to put that cyclist in danger by your own actions, not the other way around. After all, he wasn't being run over until you came along.

By your logic the drivers take no responsibility when they get behind the wheel, just get in and hope everyone gets out of the way. Everyone has the responsibility to use the road safely and with regard to the other users of the road, even those that have really really short tempers.

I do realize that some cyclists make a bad impression and don't follow the rules of the road. I don't defend their actions and I don't promote breaking the law when cycling.

However, what you dsescribed was a cyclist, who, while riding along a stretch of road had someone come up behind them and honk. OK, well I can tell you from experience that that is almost always someone who wants you to get the berkeley out of their road. People who are being friendly while trying to pass understand that coming right up on someone and honking is nerve racking. You don't honk just because you pass the mailman or that car with their hazards on that's limping down the road at 5 mph, so don't do it to some dude who is enjoying his afternoon exercise routine. The people who honk are usually the people who pass you so close that you feel their mirror touch your ear as they try, yes, try to run you off the road, even though you are doing something completely within the law.

Why did he move over? To force you to pass him when it was safe to do so. Why give some jerk every opportunity to kill you? If they have to move completely into oncoming traffic in order to pass you they will have to actually have to plan their move instead of just giving in to their stupid impaitence and just plowing ahead even though they may very will kill you.

(puts on SFI 5 suit and chain mail underwear)

What Toyman is saying is that there has to be a certain level of respect for the larger of the two vehicles because it simply cannot stop or turn as fast as the smaller. It has NOTHING to do with the driver of the car being viewed as a jerk.

There is a certain arrogance with some (not all) bicyclists that since they are saving the planet that the laws of physics were repealed just for them. If this guy on the bike KNEW someone was coming up behind him and chose to move over in front of that oncoming vehicle, guess what: he will LOSE. No matter the driver's intentions. It's real similar to the way some people think their desire for a morning cholesterol wad and a chance at winning the next McDonald's hot coffee lawsuit means they can cut in front of the 80,000 pound 18 wheel truck and slam on brakes so they don't miss the turn. Guess what, folks: the truck simply can't stop as fast as the car. Period.

Me, I try my damndest to stay away from the bicyclists because 1) I really don't want to kill anyone even if they are wearing those tacky Lycra shorts 2) if the worst happens I will be on the front page of the paper the next day as 'the evil bastard who ran down the bicyclist' regardless of whether I had the right of way or not. Not the kind of publicity I want. Nor do I want to live with the memory of someone dying under my car because he felt he had to wave his big 'right of way' penis at me.

It's the same reason I stay as far from 18 wheelers as possible because now I am the bicyclist; even if I am driving the Trooper towing the race car (GVW around 7500 pounds) if he hits me, I'm gonna lose. So I give his big heavy ass all the room he needs.

When riding a motorcycle, the odds are even LESS in my favor. I don't even want to consider a bicycle in heavy traffic. Maybe in an accident I would be in the right; I'd still be just as dead.

BTW: From the description, this is NOT what happened to the OP and if I were in his shoes I'd report that to the po po so fast it would make your head spin.

I agree in a lot of respects Jensenman, you do have to ride smart when you are on a bike, and for that matter I would like all users of the road to take their smart pill before they get on the road in the morning. The guys who are "holier than thou" because they are saving the planet by riding their bike are the same kind of problem as the guys who think that they "own the road" because they are in a bigger vehicle. No dice, they are all wrong.

The problem is two fold. There are too many users for the current infrastructure to support and no one wants to take the time to consider how their actions affect others. This isn't going to be resolved anytime soon.

EastCoast, have you ever felt the bow wave coming off the front of a tractor trailer rig. A lot of air isn't it. Just like I toot the horn when coming up on someone standing on the side of the road, I was letting the biker know there was a large vehicle passing him, to give him a chance to prepare himself. He chose to put him self in danger. Due to oncoming traffic load, I needed to get past him with out slowing down to 15 mph. My rig doesn't accelerate like a sports car. I passed him at about 40MPH. If he had stayed on the edge or even his half of the lane, He would have been fine. In choosing to take the entire lane, he put him self at risk of being blown off the road. He got what he deserved. Not because of anything I did, but by his choice. If you can't handle being passed at speed on the highway, stay off the highway.

To put it another way. You come up behind a car on a two lane road. Your speed 55MPH. The other car is going 40. You are in a passing zone, you signal and change lanes to pass. He pulls over to stop you from passing him and you hit him. Whose at fault. You or the guy who decided to cut you off.

EastCoastMojo wrote: Cyclists are legally allowed to use up to half of the lane.

MInor point: In Texas, bicyclists are required to "ride as near as practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway" except in certain circumstances.

Texas Bicycle Laws

When I ride, I'm careful not to have a chip on my shoulder. To win the court case, one must first survive the accident. I listen for cars (anyone who rides with an Ipod and earphones is an idiot.) and look around a lot. I'm also not too proud to become a pedestrian and use the crosswalks. Yes, I'm slow and definitely not cool. I'm also old and have never broken a bone.

When I drive near bicycles, I give them as wide a berth as possible and no warning/greeting/whatever honks. That's rude at best.

What you have described in your first post, Toyman01, is passing in an unsafe manner and reckless driving. Did you not see the cyclist as you were bearing down on him from behind? Did you slow to a proper speed and allow a proper following distance? Did you plan to pass safely and move into the oncoming lane completely as to be able to complete your passing maneuver without endangering the other road users?

Your rig does not need to accellerate like a sprots car in order to pass a cyclist safely on a two lane road. If you were passing a car it would have occupied the entire lane, use the same technique when passing the cyclist.

We all put ourselves at risk when we head out the door in the morning. It is your responsibility to make sure, as the pilot of your vehicle, that you do not needlessly increase the risk to the others on the road, regardless of their means of transprotation.

If you can't handle your rig safely on the highway, kindly stay off the highway.

I'm not going to play "what if" with your scenario. You described your actions, you described your willfull execution of an obviously unsafe maneuver and that is what I am calling you out on. I am not the traffic police. Think about what you did and see if you don't reach a similar conclusion: you were wrong.

EastCoastMojo wrote: I agree in a lot of respects Jensenman, you do have to ride smart when you are on a bike, and for that matter I would like all users of the road to take their smart pill before they get on the road in the morning. The guys who are "holier than thou" because they are saving the planet by riding their bike are the same kind of problem as the guys who think that they "own the road" because they are in a bigger vehicle. No dice, they are all wrong. The problem is two fold. There are too many users for the current infrastructure to support and no one wants to take the time to consider how their actions affect others. This isn't going to be resolved anytime soon.

You are correct about the infrastructure comment. The problem is, there are a bunch of roads in the town I live in that have bike lanes. Even the 480 million dollar bridge they just built has a bike and pedestrian lane. I bet there are 40+ miles of bike lanes/paths in my town. But for some reason the bikers like the roads that are narrow and two lane. Then they ride like jerks on top of that. Then they get self righteous when you try to pass them. If they won't look out for themselves then its on them.

I have passed long distance bikers on major highways with no problem. Come up behind them at 60+ toot the horn. They ride as far to the right as they can get I pass them as far to the left as I can get, no problem. But bring the amateurs in town out and its like most of them forget about their mortality.

EastCoastMojo wrote: What you have described in your first post, Toyman01, is passing in an unsafe manner and reckless driving. Did you not see the cyclist as you were bearing down on him from behind? Did you slow to a proper speed and allow a proper following distance? Did you plan to pass safely and move into the oncoming lane completely as to be able to complete your passing maneuver without endangering the other road users? Your rig does not need to accellerate like a sprots car in order to pass a cyclist safely on a two lane road. If you were passing a car it would have occupied the entire lane, use the same technique when passing the cyclist. We all put ourselves at risk when we head out the door in the morning. It is your responsibility to make sure, as the pilot of your vehicle, that you do not needlessly increase the risk to the others on the road, regardless of their means of transprotation. If you can't handle your rig safely on the highway, kindly stay off the highway. I'm not going to play "what if" with your scenario. You described your actions, you described your willfull execution of an obviously unsafe maneuver and that is what I am calling you out on. I am not the traffic police. Think about what you did and see if you don't reach a similar conclusion: you were wrong.

I drive better than 60000 miles a year. Probably deal with more idiots behind the wheel than most of the people here. In the last 27+ years I have avoided all but two of them. I even avoided the idiot on the bike. I haven't had a speeding ticket in over 20 years. Regarding my driving safety we will just have to disagree.

Regarding people who endanger themselves, they will have to live and die by their own actions. If that fellow keeps riding like that he probably wont last long. People die from their own stupidity all the time. They don't cause me to lose much sleep.

If a biker wants to try to force a vehicle that weighs 10 or 15 times to do what he wants good luck to him. Maybe he will win a Darwin Award too.

I am more than happy to share the road with anyone who wants to share it.

I not going to change your mind and you won't change mine.

Thanks for the interesting discussion though.

The cyclist only expected you to follow the law in respect to passing him. The law states that you are to pass only when it is safe to do so and to move into the other lane to do so. You state that you blew him off the road. Regardless of your experience and previous record, this was a bad decision and placed this man in danger. Your action, you were responsible.

Your words: "I then proceeded to blow his ass off the road and into the grass."

Regardless of his means of transportation your action was inexcuseable and unwarranted. The cyclist was not trying to force you to bow to his will, the law requires you to pass him and all other users safely. When you fail to do so you are the one at fault. Like I stated before if he was a car he would have occupied the entire width of the lane, use the same technique you would to pass a car. You state he pulled to the middle of the lane to prevent you from passing. You don't pass in that lane, you move over into the oncoming lane to pass.

I understand that not all cyclists are couretous or know what they're doing out there. The same is true for the drivers except they carry more of the burden to ensure the safety of other road users as they have the ability to cause more harm. All road users have the responsibility to operate their vehiciles in a safe manner. What he did was not unsafe to you, what you did was unsafe to him.

You claim you are willing to share the road with anyone who is willing to share it, but what you are really doing is sharing the road with anyone who gets the hell out of your way.

You feeling the heat yet?

By your words (emphasis added):

Toyman01 wrote: I came up behind a biker on the way home from my last autocross... I tapped the horn to let the biker know I was coming up behind him a 50+ MPH. He checked his little worthless helmet mirror and proceeded to pull out in the lane in front of me so I couldn't pass him. I then proceeded to blow his ass off the road and into the grass. If he kept it on two wheels I will be amazed.

Sounds like you had plenty of time to react to the cyclist. So you were able to slow down to not run him over. You chose your actions. He did not force you to do anything. He did not put a gun to your head or put you in danger. If you had slowed down to 15mph, it would take you longer to get to your destination. You chose to do something that you knew put him in danger by his actions. You chose not to do things that would minimize the danger to him. You knew what kind of danger you were putting him in before you acted.

If he was in the middle of the lane, you had a whole half of a lane to avoid him. You chose to drive within 2' of him. You weren't avoiding any hazards when you passed him. You could have moved over further, but chose not to because it was "what he deserved".

You put your convenience over the safety of another person.

Toyman01 wrote: EastCoast, have you ever felt the bow wave coming off the front of a tractor trailer rig. A lot of air isn't it. Just like I toot the horn when coming up on someone standing on the side of the road, I was letting the biker know there was a large vehicle passing him, to give him a chance to prepare himself. He chose to put him self in danger. Due to oncoming traffic load, I needed to get past him with out slowing down to 15 mph. My rig doesn't accelerate like a sports car. I passed him at about 40MPH. If he had stayed on the edge or even his half of the lane, He would have been fine. In choosing to take the entire lane, he put him self at risk of being blown off the road. He got what he deserved. Not because of anything I did, but by his choice. If you can't handle being passed at speed on the highway, stay off the highway. To put it another way. You come up behind a car on a two lane road. Your speed 55MPH. The other car is going 40. You are in a passing zone, you signal and change lanes to pass. He pulls over to stop you from passing him and you hit him. Whose at fault. You or the guy who decided to cut you off.

Were you transporting donor organs? I fail to see where you needed pass him without slowing.

Okay, everyone here: when you get up behind someone who's going really slow on a 2 lane road, STFU and don't complain about being slowed down.

I'm a cyclist. I ride to keep myself safe, which means damn near in the middle of the lane.

You better share the road.. If you hit me or pull anything aggressive.. I hope you have good lawyers..

ignorant wrote: I'm a cyclist. I ride to keep myself safe, which means damn near in the middle of the lane. You better share the road.. If you hit me or pull anything aggressive.. I hope you have good lawyers..

My grandfather used to say "The graveyard is full of guys who thought they had the right of way".

Toyman01 wrote: \ I ride my bike only in my neighborhood or on bike paths. Even then I know cars aren't going to see me and ride accordingly. Riding on a main road is like playing Russian Roulette with someone else loading the gun.

http://www.scbikelaw.com/pdf/charleston.pdf

Riding your bicycle on a sidewalk in charleston county is illegal. best to stay on the bike paths..

walterj wrote:

ignorant wrote: I'm a cyclist. I ride to keep myself safe, which means damn near in the middle of the lane. You better share the road.. If you hit me or pull anything aggressive.. I hope you have good lawyers..

My grandfather used to say "The graveyard is full of guys who thought they had the right of way".

copy from state law:

SC state law said: SECTION 56-5-3430. Riding on roadways and bicycle paths. Every person operating a bicycle upon a roadway shall ride as near to the right side of the roadway as practicable, exercising due care when passing a standing vehicle or one proceeding in the same direction.

Not aggressive or such, but I have my rights and I know them. I think riding in groups is the best practice to be safe. I don't pull stupid stuff and know that cars can kill easy. However, I get very defensive due to the attitude of most idiots around here. I stopped road riding when I moved here because of the condition of the roads and the attitude of the people.

ignorant wrote:

walterj wrote:

ignorant wrote: I'm a cyclist. I ride to keep myself safe, which means damn near in the middle of the lane. You better share the road.. If you hit me or pull anything aggressive.. I hope you have good lawyers..

My grandfather used to say "The graveyard is full of guys who thought they had the right of way".

copy from state law:

SC state law said: SECTION 56-5-3430. Riding on roadways and bicycle paths. Every person operating a bicycle upon a roadway shall ride as near to the right side of the roadway as practicable, exercising due care when passing a standing vehicle or one proceeding in the same direction.

Oh, I'm sure you are right. I am also sure that you will not be able to quote that from the grave. After 20yrs of riding motorcycles without dying... I can say that looking out for your own ass like you had spider sense is much more effective that expecting anyone else to pay attention at all.

Stay frosty.