Driver's license test failed after student used Tesla regen braking system

In reply to Grumman F9F Cougar :

And as noted, one-pedal driving is very common across all EVs. It's not a Tesla thing, it's an EV thing. That's what I mean by vehicle type instead of vehicle make. 

I propose (tongue firmly in cheek) that driver aids not be allowed on driving tests, therefore , no automatic transmissions.

DeadSkunk (Warren) said:

I propose (tongue firmly in cheek) that driver aids not be allowed on driving tests, therefore , no automatic transmissions.

Yeah, manual crank start required. :)

They shouldn't be giving out drivers' licenses to any kids younger than 40 anyways.  Get the fark off my lawn!

I like the Finnish way. 2-3 years on a learners permit and a wicked hard test before you get your liscense. 

Make it as hard as an FAA check ride.

First off, relieved that it's a non-story, though it sounds like some decisions need to be made, codified, and disseminated. Or if the first two have happened, then the third...

I have to say, I don't think I buy the notion that it's the same as engine braking when you combine the ability to slow more aggressively, and to slow all the way to a stop.

This feels like breaking the fundamental user interface; teaching someone that lifting off the gas will stop the car from impacting something ahead is not something that should be done lightly. That's precisely the sort of input that needs to be totally ingrained when you need it, not "wait, which car am I in?"

I mean, I know "both feet in" doesn't apply in an automatic, but the use of the brake pedal has been pretty much universally standard from early the prior century when pedal placement stopped moving around until now.

There are differences and there are differences, right? I'm not saying this is absolutely ruining civilization; I'm saying we shouldn't do this lightly and without thinking through what it means to change this interface. A lot of people who regard cars as appliances and who do not think about driving are going to wind up driving both kinds of vehicles for some time to come. I suspect (how qualified am I?) that this will result in a nonzero (to understate it) number of "but I lifted off the accelerator completely!" collisions.

Full decel on regen feels pretty similar to full compression braking in my Dodge with the (standard equipment) engine brake turned on. The Dodge won't come to a stop, but otherwise it's much the same. The Dodge also doesn't light up the brake lights which might be interesting for those following. So the aggressiveness is not out of line with what can be achieved with ICE vehicles.

Having actually jumped back and forth between multiple cars today, it's not a difficult adjustment to make. Different cars work differently, always have, always will. I maintain that the gulf between a manual trans vehicle and an automatic is greater than a one-pedal EV and an automatic.

New York Nick said:

Glad it is a non story now. This would be like failing a kid in the 50's for not properly using the clutch when one of them fancy self shifting cars was used on the drivers test...

note: I didn't bother to look up when automatics became ubiquitous but the point is the same. When I got my CDL drivers used to make fun of automatic truck drivers calling them "2 peddlers", now a lot of commercial trucks are automatic. 

It looks like there are recent changes to the CDL licensing that created  restrictions for "automatic only" if the road test is taken in a vehicle with an auto, and retaking the test with a manual is required to remove the restriction. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

So the Tesla does light up the brake lights during regen? I was wondering if  that might be a legit reason to constitute a failure.

I do think Jesse Ransom also makes a very good point though. Sure it might not be tough for someone with decades of driving experience in conventional ICE vehicles and a well above average level of interest in the act to jump back and forth without issue, but for a brand spanking new driver I can see the one pedal thing teaching bad habits. In a panic braking situation that needs to be a reflexive action, no thought required. 

Keith Tanner said:

The one-pedal driving is available on just about every EV. It's  common enough that I'd call it a characteristic.

I mean its there to varying degrees on pretty much any manual vehicle as well.  Compression braking is what happens when you take your foot off the gas and leave it in gear.

The one-pedal regen thing has been present on all hybrids since the original Prius as well.

Generally neither of those is as powerful as the regen on modern EVs, but its always been a thing.

I think the article does a E36 M3ty job of differentiating between regenerative braking and automated braking (car detects stopped vehicle, obstruction, etc. and hits brakes for you so you don't crash).  It uses the terms interchangeably.  Teslas have the ability to do both, but only the regen is actually part of the discussion.

Furious_E (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

So the Tesla does light up the brake lights during regen? I was wondering if  that might be a legit reason to constitute a failure.

I do think Jesse Ransom also makes a very good point though. Sure it might not be tough for someone with decades of driving experience in conventional ICE vehicles and a well above average level of interest in the act to jump back and forth without issue, but for a brand spanking new driver I can see the one pedal thing teaching bad habits. In a panic braking situation that needs to be a reflexive action, no thought required. 

Yes, the Tesla does light the brake lights when it is regenerating and thus braking. It doesn't differentiate where the braking force is coming from.

Hopefully any driver's ed teaches panic braking to some degree. Otherwise the first time a driver gets into ABS they're going to have completely the wrong reaction when the pedal starts juddering on them. I know that Janel can jump back and forth from the EV to the 20-year-old automatic Cherokee without any difficulty, and if she can do it the average driver should be able to do so as well. She also tends to use the brake pedal more than I do when driving the Tesla. I have not found it difficult to determine "I need more braking than I'm getting, time to hit the other pedal" - it's not a conscious thought.

In reply to No Time :

I got my CDL in 2009, the automatic only restriction was there then too but there weren't a lot of automatic trucks. Now 50% of new class 8 trucks come with an automatic. 
 

Considering the quality of the average driver, I do not think that being used to the regen braking of a Tesla is any indication that he's going to be worse than any of the other people who passed their test using a hydraulic pedal.

Keith Tanner said:

Furious_E (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

So the Tesla does light up the brake lights during regen? I was wondering if  that might be a legit reason to constitute a failure.

I do think Jesse Ransom also makes a very good point though. Sure it might not be tough for someone with decades of driving experience in conventional ICE vehicles and a well above average level of interest in the act to jump back and forth without issue, but for a brand spanking new driver I can see the one pedal thing teaching bad habits. In a panic braking situation that needs to be a reflexive action, no thought required. 

Yes, the Tesla does light the brake lights when it is regenerating and thus braking. It doesn't differentiate where the braking force is coming from.

Hopefully any driver's ed teaches panic braking to some degree. Otherwise the first time a driver gets into ABS they're going to have completely the wrong reaction when the pedal starts juddering on them. I know that Janel can jump back and forth from the EV to the 20-year-old automatic Cherokee without any difficulty, and if she can do it the average driver should be able to do so as well. She also tends to use the brake pedal more than I do when driving the Tesla. I have not found it difficult to determine "I need more braking than I'm getting, time to hit the other pedal" - it's not a conscious thought.

This Driver Education instructor takes every one of his students out on a deserted road, gets them up to 35 mph, and has them stand on the brakes like their life depends on it. They're relieved to learn that they can live through a full on panic stop. I explain that if you don't know what your car will do in an emergency then you might make the wrong decisions when dealing with an emergency. Then I tell them to go home and ask their parents to take them out and do the same in their family vehicle to recognize that different vehicles behave differently. And to point out that few adults have ever done a full on panic stop and wouldn't know what to do in that situation. I also explain that searching far up the road either as far as they can see (vanishing point) or at least 15 seconds to find line of sight or path of travel blockages early gives them the time to consider the proper speed, lane positioning, and communication for the environment they are entering so as to avoid or minimize a panic stop.

In reply to vwcorvette (Forum Supporter) :

My drivers ed teacher definitely never did anything like that, but my mom had me drive immediately to an empty lot to practice panic braking after picking up my learners permit.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Gotcha, sounds like the second peddle is in play more than what I'd assumed. IIRC, the only time I've experienced regen was in a Civic hybrid on a very brief drive probably close to 10 years ago at this point. 

My driver's ed (Young Drivers of Canada) hyped up their emergency skills training, but in reality it was one stop and one run though a slalom. Pretty disappointing at the time. I think the BMW program should be required for all new drivers. 

Keith Tanner said:

My driver's ed (Young Drivers of Canada) hyped up their emergency skills training, but in reality it was one stop and one run though a slalom. Pretty disappointing at the time. I think the BMW program should be required for all new drivers. 

I can tell you that as soon as my daughter gets her license (she's 16 now but hasn't really made any progress on it yet) she's going to the BMW teen school. :)

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Keith Tanner said:

My driver's ed (Young Drivers of Canada) hyped up their emergency skills training, but in reality it was one stop and one run though a slalom. Pretty disappointing at the time. I think the BMW program should be required for all new drivers. 

I can tell you that as soon as my daughter gets her license (she's 16 now but hasn't really made any progress on it yet) she's going to the BMW teen school. :)

 

My son and one nephew did BMW's Street Survival.  Both have been driving over 20 years. Nephew has had 1 accident. Two other nephews haven't taken Street Survival. Both have had several accidents.   Not a scientific study, but I'm a big supporter of Street Survival.

M2Pilot said:

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Keith Tanner said:

My driver's ed (Young Drivers of Canada) hyped up their emergency skills training, but in reality it was one stop and one run though a slalom. Pretty disappointing at the time. I think the BMW program should be required for all new drivers. 

I can tell you that as soon as my daughter gets her license (she's 16 now but hasn't really made any progress on it yet) she's going to the BMW teen school. :)

 

My son and one nephew did BMW's Street Survival.  Both have been driving over 20 years. Nephew has had 1 accident. Two other nephews haven't taken Street Survival. Both have had several accidents.   Not a scientific study, but I'm a big supporter of Street Survival.

I've coached at Street Survival and it's a noble program but too short in scope and effectiveness. Students leave with a heightened sense of perceived skill unmatched by actual skill. And the emergency lane change activity is fine but I'd rather teach my students to be bettered prepared and stop in a straight line for the shortest possible stopping distance cause once you turn the wheel the front tires have to steer AND brake decreasing the effectiveness of either. And without follow up and reflection most "learned" skills at these events disappear with students reverting back to the bad habits they learned from the adults in their lives. If you want to take your kids to one that's fine, but understand continual reinforcement and followup are necessary towards creating a safe and effective driver on the road.

In reply to vwcorvette (Forum Supporter) :

Excellent point about the continual reinforcement & followup.  My son got that.  I expect my wreckless nephew did too.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

I don't know how California works, but in Ohio the examiner is specifically not allowed to talk to you once the test has started other than to give driving directions (turn here, park there, etc).

 

Was kind of interesting as during my test, I stopped at a stop sign, and someone behind me did the most amazingly shiny-happy move ever and blew around me to make a right turn.  The instructor said "...Wow."  I made no comment, lest my talking cause me to lose points on the test

Haha nice! I got to hear my instructor scream. We did not complete the test. She promptly directed me back to the station and let me know I failed.