Efficient home thread

Seems like a lot of threads talk about efficient homes- efficient to build, efficient on space, efficient on energy, etc.

And since everyone is very interested in them, it seems to be good to start a thread.

Containers, logs, bricks, sticks, blocks, mud, etc- have at it.

It seems safe to say that a lot of people here are not all that pleased with the cookie cutter McMansions that dot the landsake these days. So this should be more about being creative in all ways.

I really like the concept of container homes, but one thing that gets me is the imact that there will be cutting holes in it for doors, windows, and pass throughs. Neither cutting with a torch or with a powerful wheel is all that friendly for your lungs. Maybe a good blade on a water cooled sawzal....

Anyway, like I said above, have at it.

Is there space in this thread for improving on an existing home's carbon footprint? I'm not in the right situation to be thinking of a new home, but I'm planning on some things to reduce my expenditure and energy footprint...

I want to switch over to a tankless water heater when my current one craps out. Why pay to keep 30 gallons of water at 120°F all day while I'm at work? It doesn't make sense. I haven't done the pay back yet...

I was gonna do that because my hot water heater was on the fritz.

Then my neighbor got hold of the information and I received a free one instead.

hard to beat the ROI on free. For the unit I think was about 17 years.

DrBoost wrote: Is there space in this thread for improving on an existing home's carbon footprint? I'm not in the right situation to be thinking of a new home, but I'm planning on some things to reduce my expenditure and energy footprint...

why not?

RossD wrote: I want to switch over to a tankless water heater when my current one craps out. Why pay to keep 30 gallons of water at 120°F all day while I'm at work? It doesn't make sense. I haven't done the pay back yet...

I've considered that as well, the question then being gas or electric. The gas service would need to be modified to be capable of the heat flow, on the other hand, the electrical service would need to be run from the garage as the inside panel is out of space to provide power to the heater.

Another retrofit I probably should do is re-insulate the walls- it seems as if the cellulose I had put in 20 years ago has settled so much to almost eliminate it's effectiveness. Which can be very illustrated in my winter heating bills.

RossD wrote: I want to switch over to a tankless water heater when my current one craps out. Why pay to keep 30 gallons of water at 120°F all day while I'm at work? It doesn't make sense. I haven't done the pay back yet...

All of the gallons of treated, drinkable water that you waste down the drain waiting for the tankless system to heat up would be one reason...

And if you've ever thought about installing a solar hot water system, they consist of a solar collector and giant highly insulated hot water storage tank that acts as a battery to store all that energy the sun is putting into the collector. So there's nothing inherently inefficient about storing a bunch of hot water all day. Each case may vary, of course.

I sold a 100yr old stone farmhouse with all modern gas filled windows, dual heat pump system with high efficiency oil backup for cold temps, full blown in insulation and generally spent a ton trying to make it efficient over a decade.

Ya know what? I grudgingly bought a starter McMansion when I was forced to sell/move quickly for work because I had two new kids and not enough time for home restoration on a charming old world casa. I pay half the heating costs on twice the space in my new cookie-cutter in a colder climate than I did before. It has a ton more glass too - and a view. Water is free from the well until I need to service it. Sewage goes to the township - so I pay a flat fee instead of having someone come and pump out my septic for $300 a pop.

Not all things new are bad.

Josh wrote: All of the gallons of treated, drinkable water that you waste down the drain waiting for the tankless system to heat up would be one reason... And if you've ever thought about installing a solar hot water system, they consist of a solar collector and giant highly insulated hot water storage tank that acts as a battery to store all that energy the sun is putting into the collector. So there's nothing inherently inefficient about storing a bunch of hot water all day. Each case may vary, of course.

A tankless system instantly heats the water. The wasted water comes from waiting for the hot water to reach the shower\faucet. Assuming the tankless water heater is located at the same place has a tank heater, this water amount will be the same.

It costs money to heat that water all day when you're not using it, that's inefficient. The solar system takes a lot of room, but I have considered it. I'm a plumbing/hvac engineer by day...

The tankless systems I've seen have the water heated right under the faucet you are turning on. Maybe a cup of water is wasted before the water is as hot as you need it. That's where the pay off is. Not keeping 30 gallons hot all day, and not pouting 1/2 gallon down the drain every time you need hot water.

In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker:

I just think they are ugly and not very interesting, and most tend to be HUGE for a normal family of 4. Fully know that most of them are built to be a lot more efficent- but how much of that can be retrofitted to older homes, or how efficient can a right sized house be made?

kellerscobra wrote: A tankless system instantly heats the water. The wasted water comes from waiting for the hot water to reach the shower\faucet. Assuming the tankless water heater is located at the same place has a tank heater, this water amount will be the same.

The trouble with them for me is cost and reliability - a typical gas fired tank system has a $800 price tag and a long life span. With good insulation they are not really that big an expense. My gas bill in the summer is about $17. The replacement in a tankless is more expensive to purchase and I am not hearing wonderful things about life times so I spend more, recoup marginally if at all in efficiency - and replace more often. I look at these as more of a convienient packaging advantage for maybe adding a bathroom for a remodel or something than an actual cost effective replacement plan.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker: I just think they are ugly and not very interesting, and most tend to be HUGE for a normal family of 4. Fully know that most of them are built to be a lot more efficent- but how much of that can be retrofitted to older homes, or how efficient can a right sized house be made?

I tried the retrofit on my last house - there were gains for sure but not anything close to the new house. As far as the "HUGE" - I am so not complaining about the extra space for a home office and a 2.5 car garage. I used to work in the kitchen and park in the yard

In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker:

Admittedly, I'm biased. We have a 1300 ft^2 house and a 1000 ft^2 4.5 car garage attached to the back. 3 bedrooms, and laundry upstairs.

Watching house hunters, we see people getting a 3500ft^2 "starter" homes. And can't really fathom what they plan to do with the extra house they are buying. Do people plan on doing a lot more than making woope and sleeping in their bedrooms? Why do you need a 300ft^2 bedroom? With a sitting area that you never will use?

that, and there are still a pretty strong supply of older homes on the market. Seems as if there are ways that one can afford them, and then afford to improve them, it would be nice to know alternatives.

there used to be a show called "Assembly Required". It would feature custom prefab homes that could be built in a modular fashion. They went all over the country interviewing and featuring home owners, contractors, and architects who had worked with prefabbed units. The most impressive units for efficiency used SIPs (Structural Insulated Panels) custom cut to order. These factories built jigs for consistent results for prefab trusses, etc. A stick builder would be hard pressed to match quality of build, imo. Now, the prices were very close to stick building for material costs, but these prefabs go up fast. From nothing to move in a month or so. The structure/frame/shell would go up in a week or so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_insulated_panel http://www.sips.org/about/what-are-sips

In my experience with laboratory design, the big issue with tankless systems is the delta-T and the flow rate. When you start getting into high-flow water usage applications - like for a shower - you need a fairly powerful unit to heat the water up fast enough. Most of the ones I design for are electric and the electric load is substantial.

My g/f's house uses a tankless system tied into the hot water boiler (System 3000) with a heat exchanger to keep the boiler water separate from the potable water, using a conventional tank to store hot water. It works pretty well.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker: Admittedly, I'm biased. We have a 1300 ft^2 house and a 1000 ft^2 4.5 car garage attached to the back. 3 bedrooms, and laundry upstairs. Watching house hunters, we see people getting a 3500ft^2 "starter" homes. And can't really fathom what they plan to do with the extra house they are buying. Do people plan on doing a lot more than making woope and sleeping in their bedrooms? Why do you need a 300ft^2 bedroom? With a sitting area that you never will use? that, and there are still a pretty strong supply of older homes on the market. Seems as if there are ways that one can afford them, and then afford to improve them, it would be nice to know alternatives.

I wonder if anyone still builds reasonable sized houses, modular homes not included. I've realized that if I won the lottery, I really wouldn't get anything larger than 3000 ft^2. I might get two or three of them in different places, and the garages would be twice that size, but what are you doing with that much room? Of course I currently live in an apartment that can't be more than 750sqfeet with 2 other dudes.

Can someone explain how shipping container homes are affordable? Looking around it seems that a shipping container is pretty pricey for 320 ft^2 and then you have to add wiring, plumbing, insulation, etc. I think they look awesome but is it really economical?

What do you consider reasonably sized?

The wife keeps going back and forth on buying in a new addition around the corner from us.

1 acre lots, 4 bed (or 3 bed 1 bonus room), 2.5 bath, 3 car garage homes starting around 2400-2500 sq ft, for around $250k.

Only reason I'd do it is for the garage, proper kitchen (we cook a lot at home, so our small 70s kitchen with little storage space is a pain), and it'd be nice to not do laundry in the garage.

We could easily handle that type of house payment, I just don't want it.

Can we start with some basics for us (relatively) new homeowners?

Some things I've heard about, but don't really understand:
1. An energy audit
2. Insulated windows, etc.
3. ???

z31maniac wrote: What do you consider reasonably sized? The wife keeps going back and forth on buying in a new addition around the corner from us. 1 acre lots, 4 bed (or 3 bed 1 bonus room), 2.5 bath, 3 car garage homes starting around 2400-2500 sq ft, for around $250k. Only reason I'd do it is for the garage, proper kitchen (we cook a lot at home, so our small 70s kitchen with little storage space is a pain), and it'd be nice to not do laundry in the garage. We could easily handle that type of house payment, I just don't want it.

Depends.

If there's just the two of you, it seems as if getting a 4BR house that big seems like it would waste a lot of space- how much do you need for 2 people? If it's 3-4 people, that will use 2000-2500 ft pretty well.

To me, it's about using the space efficiently. My wife likes big bedrooms on TV, but when I ask if she would sit up in the BR and do something the answer is normally "no". Space to manuver in a bathroom is nice, and having a washer/dryer in the same place that 90% of the laundry is left is very nice.

Kitchen space is a "depends" as well- some people get the really nice hardware with no intention of using it, but others need space since cooking is a 3-4 person family event.

If you will really use the space, get it. If not, then why? What you really need is very personal.

alfadriver wrote: Watching house hunters, we see people getting a 3500ft^2 "starter" homes. And can't really fathom what they plan to do with the extra house they are buying. Do people plan on doing a lot more than making woope and sleeping in their bedrooms? Why do you need a 300ft^2 bedroom? With a sitting area that you never will use?

That's kind of my bugbear around here, too. We currently have something like 700 sq ft in a really nice setting but it's just a tad too small for two people and two cats. What I'd really be looking for is a house that's got something like 1500 sq ft, a decent garage and some land, but there seems to be a lack of available properties if you're looking at less than 2000 sq ft.

I really don't get it why families with two children think they need 1000 sq ft/person, especially when two of them a toddlers...

My guess is that people are so conditioned to having a bigger house that it might make smaller houses a much harder sell.

Roughly speaking, an energy audit is where an engineer surveys the home and the various utility systems to determine the amount of energy used for the size of the home, then make suggestions on where to save energy and which options will likely have the fastest ROI.

My g/f (a PE in NJ) has toyed with doing these on the side, but right now we're too involved with her own house.

1: Many states have subsidized energy audits, call your utility company. 2: Windows cost a lot and unless the existing units are drafty have a long ROI. 3: Focus on sealing drafts and insulation - both are cheap and DIY projects. 4: Usage patterns have a huge effect on what you spend - so change your habits to spend less on energy. 5: If you have an attic with a fold-down staircase, insulate the crap out of it. Those things are heat sinks. Also make sure your attic has ample ventilation.